Race & Egypt

[Dr. Cheese]

http://www.theroot.com/views/egypt-s-race-problem

I hope this is not offensive to anyone. To be clear, my only experience in Egypt was passing through to Sudan, so I cannot personally speak to the issues the author raised. As for Sudan, I actually found little racial negativity. Religion or culture could cause friction, but not race so much.

[Munjibunga]

It seems to me that groups of people will always find differences in other groups of people to keep the two groups separate.

[sandmangeck]

I didn't know some egyptians don't consider themselves african. That's silly. That would be like me not considering myself american, even though I live in indiana

[Musiclogic]

I always find it humorous when people such as Mr. Khalid voice the displeasure of racism that they find outside our country, yet always seem to point back to the USA as the most gross offender, yet this country has grown by leaps and bounds in 300 years, yet they do nothing to assert their racial displeasure in a country that has continually regressed for thousands of years. I am guessing,that being fashionable, and trendy are probably more important to him than promoting an antiracial agenda in Egypt. He would rather vent his disgust while he waits to see what they(Egypt) do. It's a stark observation of society in Egypt, but likely not to change anytime soon. It takes will and heart to try to change thousands of years of hate, not a cocktail and a confrontation.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

I always find it humorous when people such as Mr. Khalid voice the displeasure of racism that they find outside our country, yet always seem to point back to the USA as the most gross offender, yet this country has grown by leaps and bounds in 300 years, yet they do nothing to assert their racial displeasure in a country that has continually regressed for thousands of years. I am guessing,that being fashionable, and trendy are probably more important to him than promoting an antiracial agenda in Egypt. He would rather vent his disgust while he waits to see what they(Egypt) do. It's a stark observation of society in Egypt, but likely not to change anytime soon. It takes will and heart to try to change thousands of years of hate, not a cocktail and a confrontation.

Where does he point to the USA as the greatest offender?

[Mark Latimour]

Racism exists in other countries too? I'm shocked

In relation to the whole Egyptian / Middble Eastern / African thing, it really depends on the context the term is being used in. Egypt is predominatly Arab with a handful of Coptic Christians. If when you say someone is African you are using it shorthand for one of the many black races that make up Africa, I can see why it could cause confusion. In Europe my experience is people refer to "North African" as being Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya and sometimes Egypt, but most people refer to Egypt as being in the middle east. I very rarely hear people call North African's just "African" since in social convention it has a different connotation (notwithstanding its geogrpahically correct). I suppose in some sense its like calling someone from Hawaii "American". They are politically, but they don't like on America the continent.

[Phil Smith]

Mark Latimour:

How many "Black Races" are there?

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

Mark Latimour:

How many "Black Races" are there?

Cheese is probably better placed to answer that than mean, but there a number of distinct racial groups in "black Africa". Of course, it depends on how you want to define race since that is primarily used as a social construct, its not really possible to answer your question without agreeing on a definition.

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by sandmangeck

I didn't know some egyptians don't consider themselves african. That's silly. That would be like me not considering myself american, even though I live in indiana

In Egypt the "Black Ancient Egyptian" is viewed with disdain and is largely considered a product of American Afrocentrism. Most Egyptians do not consider themselves "Black Africans" or consider Ancient Egypt to be "African" and this extends into the academic fields.

Modern scholars who have studied Ancient Egyptian culture and population history have responded to the controversy over the race of the Ancient Egyptians in different ways. In 1974 the "Black Egyptian" theory was presented in Cairo at the UNESCO "Symposium on the Peopling of Ancient Egypt and the Deciphering of the Meroitic Script", but it received little support from the other delegates.[40]

Dr. Zahi Hawass, the current Secretary General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, has stated that "The portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilization as black has no element of truth to it;" and that "Ancient Egyptians are not Arabs and are not Africans despite the fact that Egypt is in Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...ce_controversy

And Islam while it has been adopted by some African Americans it was one of the strongest forces in opposition to Abolition. The Ottoman (islamic) Empire didn't outlaw slavery until the late 1800's and slavery persisted until the fall of the Empire. It was probably the most prolific civilization in the slave trade, because they were leaders in both the possession and acquisition of slaves. At one point 20% of the population of Istanbul was slaves

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by burk48237

In Egypt the "Black Ancient Egyptian" is viewed with disdain and is largely considered a product of American Afrocentrism. Most Egyptians do not consider themselves "Black Africans" or consider Ancient Egypt to be "African" and this extends into the academic fields.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient...ce_controversy

And Islam while it has been adopted by some African Americans it was one of the strongest forces in opposition to Abolition. The Ottoman (islamic) Empire didn't outlaw slavery until the late 1800's and slavery persisted until the fall of the Empire. It was probably the most prolific civilization in the slave trade, because they were leaders in both the possession and acquisition of slaves. At one point 20% of the population of Istanbul was slaves

Burke you are on a tangent. The author said Egyptians so not like to call themselves African. He said nothing about calling themselves black and he did not seek a connection to black Africa.

[Dr. Cheese]

[quote="Dr. Cheese"]

Burke you are on a tangent. The author said Egyptians so not like to call themselves African. He said nothing about calling themselves black and he did not seek a connection to Ancient Egypt.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

Racism exists in other countries too? I'm shocked

In relation to the whole Egyptian / Middble Eastern / African thing, it really depends on the context the term is being used in. Egypt is predominatly Arab with a handful of Coptic Christians. If when you say someone is African you are using it shorthand for one of the many black races that make up Africa, I can see why it could cause confusion. In Europe my experience is people refer to "North African" as being Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya and sometimes Egypt, but most people refer to Egypt as being in the middle east. I very rarely hear people call North African's just "African" since in social convention it has a different connotation (notwithstanding its geogrpahically correct). I suppose in some sense its like calling someone from Hawaii "American". They are politically, but they don't like on America the continent.

I don't think the author was shocked to see racism elsewhere, he is just writing for an African American audience about what he has experienced in Egypt. I get your point about North African, but often Arab leaders themselves like Nasir and Qadafi has cloaked themselves in Pan Africanism when it suited them. What events often prove is that the rhetoric of Arab leaders and intellectuals often does not match the reality of the masses.

This is not unusual, it reminds me of the Anti-African riots in China that preceded Tianimen Square. In all fairness, my own country often falls short of it rhetoric on race too.

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Burke you are on a tangent. The author said Egyptians so not like to call themselves African. He said nothing about calling themselves black and he did not seek a connection to black Africa.

Not at all. I simply responded to a poster that claimed he was surprised that Egyptians don't consider themselves African. I'm not surprised at all. Egyptians as a matter of consensus have long considered themselves non-Africans. And the notion that Egypt has a proud Black African heritage is a recent African American notion that is foreign to most Egyptians. I don't know near enough about ancient anthropology to comment on which position is correct.

I'm just suggesting that first clearly most Egyptians don't consider themselves Black Africans, this view apparently permeates all layers of society from Academia thru the uneducated.

And secondly, while many Black Americans look upon Islam as benign, Islam has a long and stubborn connection to racism as evidenced by it's involvement in the slave trade. Even when the Ottoman Empire abolished slavery it still had different punishments for those who had Muslim slaves (which were freed immediately) and non-Muslims which could be kept for a year. Not that Christianity was without blame when it came to slavery. Just that racism is common and in many cases still institutionalized in the Muslim world (which Egypt is certainly a part of).

[burk48237]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I don't think the author was shocked to see racism elsewhere, he is just writing for an African American audience about what he has experienced in Egypt. I get your point about North African, but often Arab leaders themselves like Nasir and Qadafi has cloaked themselves in Pan Africanism when it suited them. What events often prove is that the rhetoric of Arab leaders and intellectuals often does not match the reality of the masses.

This is not unusual, it reminds me of the Anti-African riots in China that preceded Tianimen Square. In all fairness, my own country often falls short of it rhetoric on race too.

I think if you study the history of the mid twentieth century, you'll find that many who clothed themselves in pan-africanism were themselves extremely racist. The Soviets were masters at this during the heydays of the non-aligned movement in the UN. They claimed a great identity with many third world cultures while they personally looked down upon them. Many in those countries have described the humiliating racism they felt while dealing with Soviet officials and Advisors in that era.

[Musiclogic]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Where does he point to the USA as the greatest offender?

At the beginning of the article he uses the USA as his direct comparative in the airport prequel making this a basis point for the article.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Mark Latimour

Cheese is probably better placed to answer that than mean, but there a number of distinct racial groups in "black Africa". Of course, it depends on how you want to define race since that is primarily used as a social construct, its not really possible to answer your question without agreeing on a definition.

I would think that you, the person that is making the statement would be in the best position to answer. What in your mind is race? i.e. When you construct a reply and talk about different races, what does that mean to you i.e. your definition?

[Mark Latimour]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

I would think that you, the person that is making the statement would be in the best position to answer. What in your mind is race? i.e. When you construct a reply and talk about different races, what does that mean to you i.e. your definition?

Feel free to think what you want, the definition is not germaine to the discussion in this thread and I'd rather not derail Cheese's thread with a debate on it. If you don't get the point I was making in my post I am happy to try and explain it to you in more simple terms, but that particular detail is fairly minor in the scheme of the overall point and doesn't change it.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by burk48237

Not at all. I simply responded to a poster that claimed he was surprised that Egyptians don't consider themselves African. I'm not surprised at all. Egyptians as a matter of consensus have long considered themselves non-Africans. And the notion that Egypt has a proud Black African heritage is a recent African American notion that is foreign to most Egyptians. I don't know near enough about ancient anthropology to comment on which position is correct.

I'm just suggesting that first clearly most Egyptians don't consider themselves Black Africans, this view apparently permeates all layers of society from Academia thru the uneducated.

And secondly, while many Black Americans look upon Islam as benign, Islam has a long and stubborn connection to racism as evidenced by it's involvement in the slave trade. Even when the Ottoman Empire abolished slavery it still had different punishments for those who had Muslim slaves (which were freed immediately) and non-Muslims which could be kept for a year. Not that Christianity was without blame when it came to slavery. Just that racism is common and in many cases still institutionalized in the Muslim world (which Egypt is certainly a part of).

I think you did miss the point because being African has nothing to do with race. It is simply recognizing that Egypt is in Africa. As for Islam and race, this is nothing new to me, I been teaching this material for the better part of thirty years.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

At the beginning of the article he uses the USA as his direct comparative in the airport prequel making this a basis point for the article.

I didn't get that from what he said. I think he was simply stating that in the Arab world, his looks allowed him to simply blend in in a way that he could not in America.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

I always find it humorous when people such as Mr. Khalid voice the displeasure of racism that they find outside our country, yet always seem to point back to the USA as the most gross offender, yet this country has grown by leaps and bounds in 300 years, yet they do nothing to assert their racial displeasure in a country that has continually regressed for thousands of years. I am guessing,that being fashionable, and trendy are probably more important to him than promoting an antiracial agenda in Egypt. He would rather vent his disgust while he waits to see what they(Egypt) do. It's a stark observation of society in Egypt, but likely not to change anytime soon. It takes will and heart to try to change thousands of years of hate, not a cocktail and a confrontation.

From the perspective of someone who has found himself on the short end of the stick, thinking about how much things have changed over the last 300 years means little when you have just been dumped on. That perspective, though accurate, is much easier to have when you aren't subject to mistreatment.