Should companies be "bullied" or complained into offering changes?

[Quickie]

I'm new here. I was just completely amazed at a series of threads at the bass forum. These particular threads are about Music Man and the demand and criticizing of not offering 19mm string spacing on their 5 string basses.

As I see it now, the company has agreed to this demand. If my words seem inflammatory, this is how I see it.

I see this in a twofold opinion.

We, no some, have become a bunch of unhappy complainers. I see this nation as becoming fat, spoiled and demanding and "me, me, me". It saddens me, but it is the truth.

Second, the internet as much as it can be used for good, has the exact equal of being used for bad. In the sense that people can apparently bad mouth a well known company into an "option" on their products to quell the extreme minority of unhappy customers or, in this case, apparently many complainers that don't like the current string spacing on Music Man's basses.

My question is this...........do you think this is healthy change for customer relations and product improvement....or just an experiment (as I think) to satisfy the few that are yelling the loudest?

I think what Music Man is doing is admirable.....in the sense that they are trying to offer every option they can. I will be watching with great curiousness as to the outcome of this experiment.

[MatticusMania]

I think that taking note of what your cutomers want, and meeting their needs is a good thing. Its certainly nothing new.
I dont really see it as bullying, but rather a company taking note of the feedback their clientele is giving.

[Selta]

No 19mm option has been a complaint by people against EBMM for some time now. I think EBMM is pretty attuned to their user base/fan base, and also got somewhat tired of hearing "If you make it they will pay", so as such has offered it to see if people WILL pay.

However, I don't think most companies do this. I think most are open to suggestions and complaints, but not many will put out a potential run to see if it'll fly like EBMM has. I don't think most companies should, either. They make what they make, and I'm certain the bean counters keep an eye on what could possibly be revenue streams.

All in all though, if there's enough voices complaining about something, then I think a lot of companies will look into it. The number of voices though needs to be relatively high.

[L-A]

May I suggest this video, as it explains my opinion and voices it much better than I ever could (~18 minutes):

Malcolm Gladwell on spaghetti sauce (seriously, it's incredibly relevant)

[GregC]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

I think that taking note of what your cutomers want, and meeting their needs is a good thing. Its certainly nothing new.
I dont really see it as bullying, but rather a company taking note of the feedback their clientele is giving.

This. And it's gone on forever, it's not a new phenomenon. You can't really hitch it to the ever-popular "everyone sucks now" complaint.

[superbassman2000]

I would attribute this particular case to "the squeaky wheel gets the grease"

As someone who works in retail, I can say that there is a difference between complaints and being vocal about what the customer wants...there's a thin red line sometimes but it's still there. I have just heard customers making their opinion heard regarding the stingray issue, and to me, that's only beneficial to ebmm. They heard what people want, probably ran it through their cost/benefit analysis. it must have looked profitable to do it so they did it.

[metron]

This thread poses a loaded question. I followed all the threads from the beginning and your view of them is pretty skewed. Who is doing all the bullying and demanding? Its far more of a hey EBMM please make this situation.

Note that there were threads here about "who wants 19mm spacing?" which resulted in a thread on the ebmm forum titled "its ignorance like this that really upsets me". BOOM the whole thing got spun. In quite a spectacular and absurd manner. You want a feature they dont offer? You are ignorant and you make me mad.

Then sterling chimed in and told those who want this specific feature to essentially go pound sand its not happening. Buy something else. Good advice IMO. Then he said it will only happen if its requested by an artist. Then someone over there said that was cocky. His response:

Here is the deal...Guess what...Its my ass on the line...period. I dont have shareholders but have 125 families to feed...if I screw up everyone suffers. At the same time if I dont get to execute a vision why should I bother? You say cocky that I would make it for an artist...did you think in your rigid mind that the artist may just actually drive sales and validate your narrow scope of what you want?

I have tried to very patiently explain myself. Do any of you wonder why Bob Taylor Isnt on his forum or Paul Smith on his? Ill tell you that both have told me that I am crazy because the entitlement will drive you away. The statements of fact about what it costs and what is easy when most have never set foot ina factory is astounding.

I have also asked very nicely to not make this about Talk Bass...when people who attempt to defend em of this place throw TB under the bus it only hurts us. They dont remember that Whatchamallit from podunk said it they take offense at the whole place here.

Big Harry has said it is no big deal to make this bass. Big Im sort of calling Harry and the rest out here with respect but here is the tooling alone for the 19mm bass

Bridge Tooling $5,000.00
Bobbin Tooling $9,500.00
Pick Up cover Tooling $4,000.00
compensated nut tooling $2,000.00
Total Tooling $20,000.00

Engineering time 100 hrs at $150.00 $15,000.00

Parts about $20,000.00
Total investment for 19mm bass $55,000.00

I have the purchasing department giving me the minimum quantities and our cost for the cost of the actual parts needed....Best guess $20,000.00 in inventory needed..But I will get back to you on this....

I will open this product up for order....For a two week window...You can buy it through shopatron on our site...it will be a single or double h sr5 19mm spacing Black only rosewood or maple fretboard...fretted only Same retail as the SR5.

Lets see who is right. If we sell 125 in a two week period I will make them and offer them ongoing basis and send everyone a signed certificate saying they were right.

If we cant sell 125 ...will you post an apology to us? Will you give us the benefit of doubt in the future? Will some start considering that there is more to bringing an easy product as some have said to market?

Figure it out I will not make a dime it will cost me money to make the 125 based on the tooling and inventory involved.

Scotty is setting up the shopatron...Understand that these are binding orders....unless the public fails to order 125...we will be charging your credit card a 50% deposit upon placement of the order. The deposit will only be refundable if the orders fail to meet the 125

Its a big world and we sell Music Man in about 75 countries....If there is a pent up demand we really should sell 500.


Thanks for the offer! Does the bass come with a booger on it? Personally I would rather chew on broken glass and wash it down with salty lemon juice then buy an ebmm product after this crapfest.

[Kwesi]

In response to the thread title:

I literally lol'd at the use of the word "bullying." I seriously doubt that EBMM is being harassed over their lack of 19mm spacing to any degree that a company of their size couldn't handle. I see the point you're trying to make but honestly, your argument just doesn't hold up. The folks at EBMM are big boys, they can take care of themselves. And if they can't, they'll fail, it's how the world works.

In response to the thread question:

I don't think either of your options properly describe the companies move. I think it's an experiment to gauge real world interest. Loads of people (on TB, anyway) have outright said that they would buy a 19mm EBMM bass the minute it was available. Well, now it is and they have their chance to show their support for the change. I'm hoping that people go for it and that it works out for everyone EBMM and the customers alike.

Also, why are the thread and the title asking two separate questions? That's a little confusing.

[SoonerMatt]

Originally Posted by metron

Personally I would rather chew on broken glass and wash it down with salty lemon juice then buy an ebmm product after this crapfest.

Like I said in the "Put up or shut up" thread, the whole situation just seems hateful on the EBMM side of the fence solely because it was a TB idea. I don't know why that forum has a thing against us, but they spat a lot of fire and more than anything I think that's what really spun this. Sterling said he doesn't come here so of course he's going to listen to what his forum says.

I'm with kwesi, this is just to test the market and if I were in their shoes I'd also do a preorder batch just to see if the interest is really there. Anyone would. Do I think the execution is right? No - they started the countdown with too short notice and (as of now) relying solely on word of mouth advertisement. It's not like they're saying "oh crap, people are being mean on my forum, I'd better make this a production model post haste!"

Am I going to preorder one? No. I'm not a fan of broadnecks, didn't care about the 19mm debate, and honestly am a huge fan of their current spacing. Now if this were over whether or not their 5 string Rays should also have a metal control plate....

[metron]

Originally Posted by SoonerMatt

Now if this were over whether or not their 5 string Rays should also have a metal control plate....

See... Its ignorance like this that really upsets me. priceless.

For an example on how to meet customer requests, look to moog with their release of the taurus pedals. People said please please and they responded with ok 250 of you make a down payment and we will do it. What... no berating and childish temper tantrums? they completely redesigned a complex electronic instrument, sold the 1000 limited run, and are still making them. I enjoy mine. Ill never see the sr5-19 though.

[john grey]

Quite a few years back, one of the giant soft-drink companies, Coka-Cola, offered a product called "New Coke" in a flavor that the public did not apparently care for. They changed their marketing strategy several times but the public didn't buy it (literally & figuratively).

That was NOT the public "bullying" anything. That was supply and demand in a consumer-oriented market place. Simply because a company yields to the market does not make it a victim. In fact, companies PAY to find out just what it IS that the public wants.

However, the public may have such diverse wants that the company is faced with a dilemma of what to pick & frequently they opt to satisfy the largest segment of their BUYING population. NOT the most vocal, NOT the most prestigious, but those who BUY their product.

If a musical instrument company is faced with options, it MAY choose to experiment with differing designs. but ultimately it will produce that which is sold the most.

A decade or more in the past I doubt that MM planned on even building a mid-priced instrument (SUB) let alone an off-shore instrument. But selling units is what business is all about. If that's being "bullied", there are other companies that would fight for the privilege of such mistreatment.

[SoonerMatt]

Originally Posted by metron

See... Its ignorance like this that really upsets me. priceless.

For an example on how to meet customer requests, look to moog with their release of the taurus pedals. People said please please and they responded with ok 250 of you make a down payment and we will do it. What... no berating and childish temper tantrums? they completely redesigned a complex electronic instrument, sold the 1000 limited run, and are still making them. I enjoy mine. Ill never see the sr5-19 though.

I know, how dare I want an alternate option?!

Anyway, Robert Moog was a class act and that extends to both his company and their community. Here's a fun little experiment: go to EBMM's forums and ask which replacement MM pickup sounds closest to stock. I love Music Man's instruments but their forums are hyper elitist and critical to everyone who goes against the grain. Moog's community understands that you can use other synths or pedals and it's okay; they knowingly admit the MF-101 picks up radio signals and that mini Moogs cannot get every synth tone out there. They're okay if you aren't 100% on board. Warwick's staff often interacts with users on their forums but are incredibly respectful and frequently use their customers' recommendations (Ex: Thumb SC, Duncan pickups as an upgrade option, and others). Another interesting tidbit is the Warwick forums also feel EBMM's forums are elitist and condescending. Same story with EHX.

EBMM wasn't antagonized or bullied into making any decisions, their forums did the shoving for them.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by Quickie

We, no some, have become a bunch of unhappy complainers. I see this nation as becoming fat, spoiled and demanding and "me, me, me". It saddens me, but it is the truth.

1) talkbass.com is an international discussion forum. no "this nation" about it.

2) nobody was asking for anything to be "Free". they were asking for a product to be made so that they could buy it. one of the finer points of capitalism is the ability to do this.

Second, the internet as much as it can be used for good, has the exact equal of being used for bad. In the sense that people can apparently bad mouth a well known company into an "option" on their products to quell the extreme minority of unhappy customers or, in this case, apparently many complainers that don't like the current string spacing on Music Man's basses.

3) i must say that's a pretty skewed statement about capitalism at work. demand exists, made itself known, and those responsible for supply heard and responded.

My question is this...........do you think this is healthy change for customer relations and product improvement....or just an experiment (as I think) to satisfy the few that are yelling the loudest?

I think what Music Man is doing is admirable.....in the sense that they are trying to offer every option they can. I will be watching with great curiousness as to the outcome of this experiment.

i think if music man didn't want to hear what their customers had to say, they wouldn't listen. it's pretty easy to ignore your customers. pretty hard to stay in business that way though.

your whole take on this sounds like you're really reaching for something to gripe about to me.

Originally Posted by metron

This thread poses a loaded question. I followed all the threads from the beginning and your view of them is pretty skewed. Who is doing all the bullying and demanding? Its far more of a hey EBMM please make this situation.



Note that there were threads here about "who wants 19mm spacing?" which resulted in a thread on the ebmm forum titled "its ignorance like this that really upsets me". BOOM the whole thing got spun. In quite a spectacular and absurd manner. You want a feature they dont offer? You are ignorant and you make me mad.



Then sterling chimed in and told those who want this specific feature to essentially go pound sand its not happening. Buy something else. Good advice IMO. Then he said it will only happen if its requested by an artist. Then someone over there said that was cocky. His response:



Here is the deal...Guess what...Its my ass on the line...period. I dont have shareholders but have 125 families to feed...if I screw up everyone suffers. At the same time if I dont get to execute a vision why should I bother? You say cocky that I would make it for an artist...did you think in your rigid mind that the artist may just actually drive sales and validate your narrow scope of what you want?



I have tried to very patiently explain myself. Do any of you wonder why Bob Taylor Isnt on his forum or Paul Smith on his? Ill tell you that both have told me that I am crazy because the entitlement will drive you away. The statements of fact about what it costs and what is easy when most have never set foot ina factory is astounding.

I have also asked very nicely to not make this about Talk Bass...when people who attempt to defend em of this place throw TB under the bus it only hurts us. They dont remember that Whatchamallit from podunk said it they take offense at the whole place here.

Big Harry has said it is no big deal to make this bass. Big Im sort of calling Harry and the rest out here with respect but here is the tooling alone for the 19mm bass

Bridge Tooling $5,000.00

Bobbin Tooling $9,500.00

Pick Up cover Tooling $4,000.00

compensated nut tooling $2,000.00

Total Tooling $20,000.00

Engineering time 100 hrs at $150.00 $15,000.00

Parts about $20,000.00

Total investment for 19mm bass $55,000.00

I have the purchasing department giving me the minimum quantities and our cost for the cost of the actual parts needed....Best guess $20,000.00 in inventory needed..But I will get back to you on this....

I will open this product up for order....For a two week window...You can buy it through shopatron on our site...it will be a single or double h sr5 19mm spacing Black only rosewood or maple fretboard...fretted only Same retail as the SR5.


Lets see who is right. If we sell 125 in a two week period I will make them and offer them ongoing basis and send everyone a signed certificate saying they were right.

If we cant sell 125 ...will you post an apology to us? Will you give us the benefit of doubt in the future? Will some start considering that there is more to bringing an easy product as some have said to market?



Figure it out I will not make a dime it will cost me money to make the 125 based on the tooling and inventory involved.

Scotty is setting up the shopatron...Understand that these are binding orders....unless the public fails to order 125...we will be charging your credit card a 50% deposit upon placement of the order. The deposit will only be refundable if the orders fail to meet the 125

Its a big world and we sell Music Man in about 75 countries....If there is a pent up demand we really should sell 500.


Thanks for the offer! Does the bass come with a booger on it? Personally I would rather chew on broken glass and wash it down with salty lemon juice then buy an ebmm product after this crapfest.

so this whole thing is some kind of wierd spillover from the ebmm forum itself? really? how bizarre.

[Kwesi]

John Grey and John Turner completely and utterly nailed it. Now all we need is Pacman for the John/John/Jon trifecta of logic and reason .

[jmattbassplaya]

pwn'd.

[metron]

Originally Posted by john turner

so this whole thing is some kind of wierd spillover from the ebmm forum itself? really? how bizarre.

No thats not what im saying at all. Clearly it was spillover from here that had some direct influence on the decision to offer the feature. I was trying to point out how the discourse of the conversation is sort of the opposite of what quickie is suggesting.

[Skitch it!]

I've owned 3 of them over the years, one bought in the first few months of release in '87, the only reason I moved them on was because of the spacing, I thought they may have considered it long before now.

[bongomania]

It's a fine line, IMO.

On the one hand I think consumers have every right to ask for better products from any company. The explosive growth of organic foods sales in mainstream grocery chains is 100% rooted in consumer demands. For the longest time the chains said "no way, it's too expensive, it's a risk we can't afford to take", but then the consumer base kept pushing, and their dollars went elsewhere, and eventually the chains wised up and got on board with organic and natural foods, and now they are raking in the dough from it.

OTOH, a specialized manufacturer of something as esoteric as an electric bass cannot be expected to try to be all things to all people, the way a giant grocery store can. I wouldn't go to Fender demanding a wild modern boutique design, and I wouldn't go to Jens Ritter and demand he make me a P bass.

So I absolutely do believe in "consumerism 2.0", in general, but I also think it is totally reasonable for a BG manufacturer to say "sorry, what you are asking for is just not what we do".

[john turner]

Originally Posted by metron

No thats not what im saying at all. Clearly it was spillover from here that had some direct influence on the decision to offer the feature. I was trying to point out how the discourse of the conversation is sort of the opposite of what quickie is suggesting.

when i said "this whole thing" i guess i should have been more succinct - i meant the whole "mean ole' tb'ers beating up on poor sterling and his poor helpless company" that the op seemed to be implying was going on being a spillover, not eb offering the 19mm bass.

[Quickie]

Originally Posted by john turner

tb'ers beating up on poor sterling and his poor helpless company" that the op seemed to be implying was going on being a spillover, not eb offering the 19mm bass.

I have no dog in this war, (TB vs Music Man), I made an observation of what has been posted here. I should of known better as controversy seems to flow around Music Man like the rivers into the ocean.

I won't use any "this nation" reference in the future, but I'm confident that you got my point.

I'm not reaching for "something to gripe about". On the contrary, I am once again, just asking a question about what I have observed. There is no agenda to it. I will be much more specific in the future as I don't want anyone to read into something that I have not said nor implied.