So Gates wants to bulk up Army and USMC but lower Navy and AF

[Holy War]

You think this a good idea? My current study of international affairs seems to think so. I believe that terrorism in its current state is a bit of "fad." I believe that the US should put an emphasis on counter terrorism but an even stronger emphasis on method on conventional warfare tactics. Im worried that our military is becoming too generalized into fighting small wars and unconventional tactics. That is what the Marines are for, but the Army, AF, and Navy need to start focusing on big wars that have a potential in our future.

With China's current strive for world economic dominance and their increasing relations with Russia, I think the US needs to start worrying about large scale proximity wars like we saw in Korea and Vietnam. Im writing a paper about it now, and just wonder what you all thoughts are on the topic.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Side question - I always thought the USMC was part of the navy?

I dare say it depends to what extent they plan on doing it. Maybe they just aren't seeing a threat from naval attacks, and there probably isn't a huge requirement for as much of an air force other than for smaller tactical operations? Not really my opinion on it, just trying to see reasoning behind things.

First thought was that planes and boats are a heck of a lot more expensive than tanks

[b_carville]

Could it be because of Afghanistan?

[GeneralElectric]

Marines aren't part of the Navy, they're the smallest branch of the armed services. You know, The Few, The Proud, the Marines... yada yada yada

If we did go to war with China, our Navy is already much stronger than theirs and the state of Russia's military is crap. They got their ass handed to them by peasants in Georgia. (Yes, Russia did win, but look at the disproportionate casualty count!) Our Air Force would also dominate, because China is still using old technology.
They're something like 25 years behind us in military technology. Currently they're trying to get access to a whole slew of American technology through a decentralized spy network, and the new F-35 fighter is proportedly compromised by chinese cyber spies. There will most likely be a whole new overhaul before these things are actually released to combat ready status.

Thus, this is why the focus is on ground troops. While the USAF and the Navy each have ground forces, they're not in enough numbers to justify the expense when it is cheaper and easier to bulk up existing large bodies of ground troops.

I think that, yes, eventually, we will go to war with China. It will be bloody and long. I think America would have the upper-hand in terms of troop quality and equipment, but the Chinese have numbers. I expect a horrendously high casualty count as well. I'm not sure if this last bit could be considered political or not, so if it is, would a mod PM me to remove this, or just delete it; though its surely not intended to be.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

[UnsungZeros]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Side question - I always thought the USMC was part of the navy?

USMC falls under the civilian leadership of the Department of the Navy. Under the military leadership structure, they are a separate branch.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Cheers for the info guys

Just always thought being "Marine" seemed to associate it with the Navy (the Royal Marines in the UK are part of the Navy IIRC).

[Holy War]

Originally Posted by GeneralElectric

Marines aren't part of the Navy, they're the smallest branch of the armed services. You know, The Few, The Proud, the Marines... yada yada yada

If we did go to war with China, our Navy is already much stronger than theirs and the state of Russia's military is crap. They got their ass handed to them by peasants in Georgia. (Yes, Russia did win, but look at the disproportionate casualty count!) Our Air Force would also dominate, because China is still using old technology.
They're something like 25 years behind us in military technology. Currently they're trying to get access to a whole slew of American technology through a decentralized spy network, and the new F-35 fighter is proportedly compromised by chinese cyber spies. There will most likely be a whole new overhaul before these things are actually released to combat ready status.

Thus, this is why the focus is on ground troops. While the USAF and the Navy each have ground forces, they're not in enough numbers to justify the expense when it is cheaper and easier to bulk up existing large bodies of ground troops.

I think that, yes, eventually, we will go to war with China. It will be bloody and long. I think America would have the upper-hand in terms of troop quality and equipment, but the Chinese have numbers. I expect a horrendously high casualty count as well. I'm not sure if this last bit could be considered political or not, so if it is, would a mod PM me to remove this, or just delete it; though its surely not intended to be.

Im in the Marines and will be an officer in 2 1/2 weeks. I have a decent idea what goes on militarily in the intel community, but dont know much about CIA or NSA.

Gates intends to:

"He would kill controversial programs to build a new presidential helicopter and a new communications satellite system, delay the development of a new bomber and order only 4 more of the advanced F-22 fighter jet" -NY Time Military Budget Reflections a Shift in US Strategy by Christopher Drew

Gates would also "...making the system more flexible and responsive to the needs of the troops in the way it chooses and buys weapons." and "make tough choices about specific systems and defense priorities based solely on the national interest and then stick to those decisions over time." -NY Time Military Budget Reflections a Shift in US Strategy by Christopher Drew

Congress does want to save the F-22 so it seems hes going to have some serious lobbying on his hands.

Gates seems to just want to make defense spending much more efficient and flexible to troop needs and desires. Unfortunately, as it always is, the Marines aint gettin **** lol!

[Holy War]

Originally Posted by UnsungZeros

USMC falls under the civilian leadership of the Department of the Navy. Under the military leadership structure, they are a separate branch.

he means civilian leadership under the Secretary of the Navy. The Marines are their own branch with a representative on the Joint Chiefs. When a MAGTAF (Marine Air Ground Task Force) is afloat with the Navy, the Navy captain or CO retains command, but when boots are on the ground, the Marine Colonial or CO is in command

[Holy War]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Cheers for the info guys

Just always thought being "Marine" seemed to associate it with the Navy (the Royal Marines in the UK are part of the Navy IIRC).

they used to be here in the US as well, but are now independant. We all know what Marine stands for right? My Ass Rides IN Navy Equipment

[GeneralElectric]

Originally Posted by Holy War

Im in the Marines and will be an officer in 2 1/2 weeks. I have a decent idea what goes on militarily in the intel community, but dont know much about CIA or NSA.

Gates intends to:

"He would kill controversial programs to build a new presidential helicopter and a new communications satellite system, delay the development of a new bomber and order only 4 more of the advanced F-22 fighter jet" -NY Time Military Budget Reflections a Shift in US Strategy by Christopher Drew

Gates would also "...making the system more flexible and responsive to the needs of the troops in the way it chooses and buys weapons." and "make tough choices about specific systems and defense priorities based solely on the national interest and then stick to those decisions over time." -NY Time Military Budget Reflections a Shift in US Strategy by Christopher Drew

Congress does want to save the F-22 so it seems hes going to have some serious lobbying on his hands.

Gates seems to just want to make defense spending much more efficient and flexible to troop needs and desires. Unfortunately, as it always is, the Marines aint gettin **** lol!

I've got a lot of friends in the marines. All you folks are uppity!

But, in my opinion, since the Marines get hardly any funding, they've made some really astounding stuff with what they can. I think if we started giving you guys adequate funding, you'd all be spoiled.

I don't think we need a new Presidential helicopter personally, I think the Marine 1 is just fine right now.

As for the F-22, while its a great jet, I don't see an increased need for more of them since we're not really losing them all too often. I'd rather see the money invested into newer fighter systems like the F-35 which have a lower unit cost and are easier to maintain. The F-22 costs almost twice as much as the F-35!

[Relic]

Chinese forces are not at all the weak, obsolete military they're made out to be. They're surprisingly capable in regards to manpower + technology thanks to various sources. We DO in fact have a technological advantage but IMHO it would have to be an absolutely massive disparity to counter their manpower, and it's not. There are two deterrents holding it all in check right now, nuclear capability and large conventional forces. ANY cuts that we may make right now are risky in regards to keeping us on top.

[Holy War]

Originally Posted by GeneralElectric

I've got a lot of friends in the marines. All you folks are uppity!

But, in my opinion, since the Marines get hardly any funding, they've made some really astounding stuff with what they can. I think if we started giving you guys adequate funding, you'd all be spoiled.

I don't think we need a new Presidential helicopter personally, I think the Marine 1 is just fine right now.

As for the F-22, while its a great jet, I don't see an increased need for more of them since we're not really losing them all too often. I'd rather see the money invested into newer fighter systems like the F-35 which have a lower unit cost and are easier to maintain. The F-22 costs almost twice as much as the F-35!

the F-35 is great, but have you heard about the Chinese cyber intel breach into the R&R of the aircraft? Its going to cause HUGE set backs to its development. Ya, we dont need fancy pants technologies. What we have at the moment is great. the Marines dont need equipment to bog us down. We are Americas light infantry shock troops. Too many gizmos and gadgets are nice, but potentially dangerous to Marine tactics

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by Relic

Chinese forces are not at all the weak, obsolete military they're made out to be. They're surprisingly capable in regards to manpower + technology thanks to various sources. We DO in fact have a technological advantage but IMHO it would have to be an absolutely massive disparity to counter their manpower, and it's not. There are two deterrents holding it all in check right now, nuclear capability and large conventional forces. ANY cuts that we may make right now are risky in regards to keeping us on top.

In regards to the manpower/ground forces. With the size of water between China and the US, surely an en masse land invasion from either China or the US to the other wouldn't be plausible?

[GeneralElectric]

Originally Posted by Holy War

the F-35 is great, but have you heard about the Chinese cyber intel breach into the R&R of the aircraft? Its going to cause HUGE set backs to its development. Ya, we dont need fancy pants technologies. What we have at the moment is great. the Marines dont need equipment to bog us down. We are Americas light infantry shock troops. Too many gizmos and gadgets are nice, but potentially dangerous to Marine tactics

Yeah, the breach was recent, I mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread.

I'm a political science major so I get to look into all this fun stuff.

[Holy War]

Originally Posted by GeneralElectric

Yeah, the breach was recent, I mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread.

I'm a political science major so I get to look into all this fun stuff.

Im an International Studies/History Major. Small world huh

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Holy War

Congress does want to save the F-22 so it seems hes going to have some serious lobbying on his hands.

Well, since AF leadership concurs with Gates and doesn't want more F-22s, lobbying won't be much of an issue. If the customer doesn't want to buy it, congress won't have much of a leg to stand on.

Gates seems to just want to make defense spending much more efficient and flexible to troop needs and desires. Unfortunately, as it always is, the Marines aint gettin **** lol!

Making spending more efficient and flexible is a good thing. Especially in this day and age.


Didn't you just say you didn't need more gear?

[GeneralElectric]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

In regards to the manpower/ground forces. With the size of water between China and the US, surely an en masse land invasion from either China or the US to the other wouldn't be plausible?

Originally Posted by Relic

Chinese forces are not at all the weak, obsolete military they're made out to be. They're surprisingly capable in regards to manpower + technology thanks to various sources. We DO in fact have a technological advantage but IMHO it would have to be an absolutely massive disparity to counter their manpower, and it's not. There are two deterrents holding it all in check right now, nuclear capability and large conventional forces. ANY cuts that we may make right now are risky in regards to keeping us on top.

Thats what they said about Normandy Beach

What will most likely happen, in my humble opinion, is that one side is going to fire at the other. Whichever side hits harder will also be the one to attempt a land invasion. Our nuclear weapons stock pile is much much larger, not to mention our missile defense/offense capabilities are much much stronger. However I don't see a fight in either mainland until well after the initial hostilities.

China has an aging air force filled with obsolete designs, with many of their planes over 20 years old. Even their newest fighters aren't that advanced. They're just cheap! I believe they're considered 4th generation fighters, while ours are considered 5th generation. I might be a little wrong on the terminology because I haven't really been into tanks and planes like I used to growing up. But I believe you get the idea. Our air force also happens to be twice the size of China's and is full of modern aircraft.

Half the Chinese Navy is obsolete and we've already got the largest Navy. Our battle fleet tonnage is greater than the next ten largest fleets combined. We've also got the largest air craft carrier fleet. Another important fact is that, unlike China's Navy, ours is also modern.

Just given these two facts means that China ass seems pretty whopped at the moment, which is why Gates, also in my humble opinion, is working on building up our ground forces. If we did fight with China, this is where the vast bulk of our casualties would come from. It only makes sense, and its also extremely troubling.

[GeneralElectric]

Originally Posted by Holy War

Im an International Studies/History Major. Small world huh

Smaller world considering my other major is history.

[IconBasser]

I wasn't aware that war with China was even in the realm of possibility.

China is the greatest trade partner to the US to date. Regardless of any ruffled feathers, I don't think either the US or China would ever dream of going to war with each other, the economic ramifications would be catastrophic. In the end, the dollar always wins.