Soldiers who fought Hitler hide their medals

[P. Aaron]

Five thousand Irish soldiers who swapped uniforms to fight for the British against Hitler went on to suffer years of persecution.

BBC News - Why Irish soldiers who fought Hitler hide their medals

[nortonrider]

"They didn't understand why we did what we did. A lot of Irish people wanted Germany to win the war - they were dead up against the British."



and......... it looks like if Germany would have won the war, they would have gotten a lot worse than what they did.
I'm actually surprised to find that Ireland wanted Hitler to win.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Ireland had not long gained independance and there is always an anti-british segment of the Irish population. The IRA (or claimed IRA) terrorists (or freedom fighters as some Amercians saw them) have still had some activity in the past couple of years, granted, still calmer than what was happening in the 80s and 90s. They would have seen Germany as a country which could have bullied Britain back.

Basically, they were punished for fighting because Ireland wanted to stay out of it (I also suspect it was unofficially to punish people for siding with the British over the Irish).

[Dr. Cheese]

I'm no expert on this subject, but if the British did not offer these Irish soldiers citizenship after the war, they are the true villians in this story. Anybody who has a knowledge of Irish history should not be surprised that the Irish sided with the Germans. Heck, many in the West sided with Hitler at one time or another in the lead up to WWII. Had it not been for both Germans and other Europeans who tolerated Hitler because he was anti-communist, he never would have gained power.

[nortonrider]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Anybody who has a knowledge of Irish history should not be surprised that the Irish sided with the Germans.

well, Obviously there's my problem, I didn't spend my time studying Irish history.

[AnchorHoy]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Heck, many in the West sided with Hitler at one time or another in the lead up to WWII

Yep. Two famous Americans that come readily to mind in this context are Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh, although to be fair a distinction needs to be drawn between supporting Hitler personally and "supporting" the Nazi government of the time

It is pretty clear from his own writings and public statements that Ford was an unabashed anti-Semite and supporter of Hitler personally

With Lindbergh, it wasn't quite that simple IMHO. Due to his high status in the aviation world he had been given unprecedented access in the late 1930's to the latest developments in German aviation, even to the point of guided tours of certain research and production facilities within Germany as a personal guest of Göring himself. It needs to be said right up front that he had also cleared his visit with the Roosevelt administration beforehand and freely offered to be debriefed in detail when he returned

At the time of Lindbergh's visit in 1936, Germany had already repudiated the Versailles Treaty and was openly rearming. The level of technological and production expertise he saw first-hand was apparently one major factor in Lindbergh's subsequent support for the America First movement, which inevitably led to his troubles with the Roosevelt administration. Accepting a medal from the Nazi government two years later, in 1938, certainly did not help him in this regard, especially since the mood in the USA had definitely turned away from isolationism and towards supporting the British and French against an increasingly aggressive Germany and Italy. Hard-head that he was, Lindbergh never backed off from his isolationist position until the Pearl Harbor attack in 1941, at which point he offered his services to the US government - with predictable results.....

Well after the start of direct American participation in the war, Roosevelt eventually consented to allowing Lindbergh to provide "technical assistance" to front-line units but (unlike many of his peers) he was not given a commission in the military and he was also flat-out barred from the European Theater, spending all of his time as an "advisor" in the Pacific Theater where his expertise played a significant role in the mission to kill Admiral Yamamoto

[Phalex]

The enemy of my enemy........

[Tegzsa]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I'm no expert on this subject, but if the British did not offer these Irish soldiers citizenship after the war, they are the true villians in this story.

From the article:

John Stout had not realised his name was included...But after the war it quickly became apparent that he could not get work and was not welcome in Ireland - so he returned to Britain.

It was referred to in the Irish parliament - the Dail - at the time as a "starvation order", and for many of their families the phrase became painfully close to the truth.

...but the British are the villains....riiiiiight.

[rr5025]

Originally Posted by Phalex

The enemy of my enemy........

Bingo

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Tegzsa

From the article:





...but the British are the villains....riiiiiight.

I said if rhe UK did not offer the Irish soldiers citizenship, they are the true villians in the story, and as I said before, I am not an expert on this story, so maybe the British did offer these veterans an oportunity to be UK citizens. Simply allowing them to be resident workers is inadequate, IMHO.

After the Vietnam War, America allowed thousands of South Vietnamese to come here and become citizens. The same is true for the Hmong soldiers from Laos who fought for America during the Vietnam War.

My main point is that if a government takes soldiers to fight in a war their own country does not support, then that country has a moral obligation to those soldiers.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I'm no expert on this subject, but if the British did not offer these Irish soldiers citizenship after the war, they are the true villians in this story.

And IF that is the way it actually went down, it frankly wouldn't surprise me. Nor would it be the first time that the British government did something so villainous.

As much as of an Anglophile as I can be, I'd be the first to admit: sometimes they can be downright bastards.

MM

[Tegzsa]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I said if did not offer the Irish soldiers citizenship, they are the true villians in the story, and as I said before, I am not an expert on this story, so maybe the British did offer these veterans an oportunity to be UK citizens. Simply allowing them to be resident workers is inadequate, IMHO.

I'm not trying to annoy you, but you seem to have gone from one unsubstantiated statement about citizenship (which is not quite right when talking about the British at that time anyway), to another about resident worker status, which doesn't really apply to the Irish. I don't know why more of them did not relocate, but there was certainly nothing legal stopping them from doing so - perhaps they had other reasons for staying: they would have had National Insurance, pension and employment rights if they had relocated, and permanently settled status if they had been there for more than a year.

Wikipedia (Iknow, I know, but the reference seemed solid enough):

Before 1949, all Irish citizens were considered by British law to be British subjects. After Ireland left the Commonwealth of Nations in that year, British law was amended to give Irish citizens a similar status to Commonwealth citizens in the United Kingdom, notwithstanding that they had ceased to be such. Thus, much like British citizens in Ireland, Irish citizens in the United Kingdom have never been treated like foreigners.

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

After the Vietnam War, America allowed thousands of South Vietnamese to come here and become citizens. The same is true for the Hmong soldiers from Laos who fought for America during the Vietnam War.

And quite right to. But tell me, after WWII, in which many African Americans fought and died, was there any difference in the civil rights for the survivors compared to their white peers? And this was their own country. Does this make the USA a "villain"?

What happened to these men and their families was shameful, especially after the full horror of what they were fighting against became known. At the very least they deserve honourable recognition in their own country, and I would say some serious compensation as well.

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by Tegzsa

I'm not trying to annoy you, but you seem to have gone from one unsubstantiated statement about citizenship (which is not quite right when talking about the British at that time anyway), to another about resident worker status, which doesn't really apply to the Irish. I don't know why more of them did not relocate, but there was certainly nothing legal stopping them from doing so - perhaps they had other reasons for staying: they would have had National Insurance, pension and employment rights if they had relocated, and permanently settled status if they had been there for more than a year.

Wikipedia (Iknow, I know, but the reference seemed solid enough):





And quite right to. But tell me, after WWII, in which many African Americans fought and died, was there any difference in the civil rights for the survivors compared to their white peers? And this was their own country. Does this make the USA a "villain"?

What happened to these men and their families was shameful, especially after the full horror of what they were fighting against became known. At the very least they deserve honourable recognition in their own country, and I would say some serious compensation as well.

If you are looking for a gotcha moment, fine. I have twice admitted that I don't have deep knowledge of this story. I simply said that the British owed the Irish soldiers for their service, and the proper repayment was citizenship, IMO. That seems to have been an option, so the British were not the villians.

As for the treatment of African American soldiers during WWII, are you simply looking for a s##tstorm? You know full well that anything I say critical about the treatment of African American soldiers will simply be an excuse for those who love to attack me to come out of the wood work.

[Tegzsa]

I was just narking the pitch a little bit. I'll stop now.

[sandmangeck]

I think the USA is has been percieved as a villain for quite sometime now with the treatment of it's own people. And I'm not even going to kick the hornets nest of the treatment of people outside.