succeeding at work - any tips?

[Rickengeezer]

Originally Posted by DwaynieAD

i love the "business owners" on here.. insisting on people going above and beyond. of course you want that. you are exploiting your work force. deal with it. I see it every day they train "back-ups" to do supervisor duties without having to pay the supervisor wage

keep on exploiting.

Show up for your next gig and refuse to help hoist PA cabinets, because after all, you're the bass player and hoisting PA cabinets "isn't your job". Afterwards, while you're looking for a new gig, you can tell people in your auditions how you were exploited in your last band.

[AnchorHoy]

Originally Posted by Joe Nerve

That entire post spells out precisely why it's a good idea to go above an beyond the regular call of duty. The idea that it seems your wife went out of her way to be on time (regardless of the fact that she was pregnant) is the attitude of the first who would be let go. She wasn't doing anybody any favors showing up on time every day. She was doing was she was supposed to be doing. And it sounds as though you believe she should have been rewarded somehow for that.

I'm getting a very different vibe from the same post. Not a sense of entitlement for doing what she was supposed to be doing (perfect attendance etc.) but the simple realization that she was one of the few in that department who met that perfectly reasonable standard in a department where significant levels of absenteeism was the norm. Granted, I'm reading between the lines there, but if that is indeed the case, she should be rewarded for that by her supervisor accepting her physical limitations and sending one of the chronic slackers down to the mail room in her place. Instead, she was sent home for the day - depriving the company of two workers - in an obvious act of reprisal for nothing more than letting her supervisor know that probably wasn't a good idea

IME that kind of petty vindictiveness is getting to be standard practice in the working world, at least in a major Corporate setting. Despite a previous clash with Munji on this very subject, I wouldn't have the slightest problem working for him because he gets it. In his company hard work, productivity, and reliability was apparently recognised not penalized. It doesn't need to be constant stroking for simply doing your job, but a good employee with a proven track record does deserve a bit of slack on potential assignments that take them waaaay beyond their normal duties. Remember, we're not talking about simply switching data shuffling duties for the day, we're talking about a major increase in wear-and-tear on an employee's body at a time when that employee is especially vulnerable to physical damage from that sort of thing

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

The people who take an active approach to their careers are the ones who come out on top. They don't ask how they can stave off losing this job, they ask how they can use this job as a springboard to their next job, whether that means a promotion within the company or jumping to a different one.

Where does this leave the person for whom a move up definitively means a move out of the career they had envisioned?

Say the case of an engineer where the only move up is to managing, and the person in question actually wants to be an engineer - not a manager?

[AnchorHoy]

Originally Posted by Rickengeezer

Show up for your next gig and refuse to help hoist PA cabinets, because after all, you're the bass player and hoisting PA cabinets "isn't your job". Afterwards, while you're looking for a new gig, you can tell people in your auditions how you were exploited in your last band.

False equivalency. Doing your fair share during the loadin/loadout is standard practice in any decent band, and it is something that is well known to all parties involved

A better analogy would be suddenly ordering the bass player who knows little if anything about the task to run the PA from out in the audience leaving the band without a bass player. A comment by the bass player to the effect of "I don't think that's a good idea" then results in the bass player being sent home for the night, resulting in two vital job positions being now left unfilled, to the obvious detriment of the entire band

[Rickengeezer]

Originally Posted by AnchorHoy

False equivalency. Doing your fair share during the loadin/loadout is standard practice in any decent band, and it is something that is well known to all parties involved.

Band members come in all types; not all are eager to do their fair share. Neither are all employees. A band is a small business, and if something unexpected comes up, the members need to cover it so the show must go on. If the sound guy doesn't show and I have to try to run sound from the stage, I don't complain about it not being my job, I just do it. I'd expect a similar willingness to pitch in out of any band members I play with, or any employees.

[Fishheadjoe]

Yah know, it's kinda funny... the OP asked for tips to succeed in the business/working world, a number of folks who have experience running companies have chimed in and they are accussed of exploiting their workers.
Perhaps those who have this exploitation chip on their shoulder, should have a look in the mirror and decide if their current tact is working for them.
Alternatively, open your own business and see it from a different perspctive... in my experience, its a real eye opener.
Fishheadjoe

[iamlowsound]

Originally Posted by aborgman

Where does this leave the person for whom a move up definitively means a move out of the career they had envisioned?

Say the case of an engineer where the only move up is to managing, and the person in question actually wants to be an engineer - not a manager?

As an engineer, moving up into management still means that you are doing engineering work. Heck, the president of my company (350 technical employees with 10 offices world wide) still does engineering work from time to time.

lowsound

[Truktek2]

Originally Posted by AnchorHoy

I'm getting a very different vibe from the same post. Not a sense of entitlement for doing what she was supposed to be doing (perfect attendance etc.) but the simple realization that she was one of the few in that department who met that perfectly reasonable standard in a department where significant levels of absenteeism was the norm. Granted, I'm reading between the lines there, but if that is indeed the case, she should be rewarded for that by her supervisor accepting her physical limitations and sending one of the chronic slackers down to the mail room in her place. Instead, she was sent home for the day - depriving the company of two workers - in an obvious act of reprisal for nothing more than letting her supervisor know that probably wasn't a good idea

IME that kind of petty vindictiveness is getting to be standard practice in the working world, at least in a major Corporate setting. Despite a previous clash with Munji on this very subject, I wouldn't have the slightest problem working for him because he gets it. In his company hard work, productivity, and reliability was apparently recognised not penalized. It doesn't need to be constant stroking for simply doing your job, but a good employee with a proven track record does deserve a bit of slack on potential assignments that take them waaaay beyond their normal duties. Remember, we're not talking about simply switching data shuffling duties for the day, we're talking about a major increase in wear-and-tear on an employee's body at a time when that employee is especially vulnerable to physical damage from that sort of thing

Thanks anchorhoy, you said it alot better than I was able to. After years of crawling and scratching to get ahead she finally got disgusted with the whole system and became a stay at home mom. Now she's only overworked and underappreciated by me and the kids.

FWIW, I don't think I'd have a problem working for Munji either, he seems to get it.

[Unprofessional]

The old success formula doesn't work any more. Your going to have to re-invent yourself periodically now. I'm the OPs age and am currently working in career #2 while attending college part-time in preparation for career #3.

[DwaynieAD]

Originally Posted by Rickengeezer

Show up for your next gig and refuse to help hoist PA cabinets, because after all, you're the bass player and hoisting PA cabinets "isn't your job". Afterwards, while you're looking for a new gig, you can tell people in your auditions how you were exploited in your last band.

apples and oranges buddy, I'm a member of the band and get treated as such. also i've never once said the "isnt my job" line in this thread, so remove your words from my mouth.

it is exploitation, you can try to sugar coat it anyway you want, but the name of the game is bosses do anything they can to pass there workload (that they are being payed to do) onto an underling

that's not management. that exploitation. you're using the threat of job security or the dangling of a promotion to manipulate someone into doing what you want.

furthermore I was raised to go above and beyond and I do. so way to try to paint me with your little broad stroked brush. as someone who works hard and goes above and beyond all I get for my trouble across several jobs i've had is added workload, lowered thanks, and the promotions go to the lazy people. we wouldnt want them in production now would we.

[Fishheadjoe]

Originally Posted by aborgman

Where does this leave the person for whom a move up definitively means a move out of the career they had envisioned?

Say the case of an engineer where the only move up is to managing, and the person in question actually wants to be an engineer - not a manager?

Jobs are no longer jobs for life... they stopped making gold watches for employees a couple of decades ago... use that experience garnered from you employer, to find another position with another company... you will bring your experience and knowledge to a new organization that should match your career goals.
Folks ask me all the time, when they should move and to where. I tell them the same thing... as soon as you stop learning on a job, it's time to consider making a move.
In the I.T. field, if your not learning, you are doing yourself and your career a dis-service. Look for companies that invest in themselves and their employees. Do your research.
Ok, I am getting a bit scattered here... I'll stop!
Fishheadjoe

[Rickengeezer]

Originally Posted by DwaynieAD

apples and oranges buddy, I'm a member of the band and get treated as such. also i've never once said the "isnt my job" line in this thread, so remove your words from my mouth.

I never said that you did. I said that those four words are a sign of an employee I don't want around.

Originally Posted by DwaynieAD

it is exploitation, you can try to sugar coat it anyway you want, but the name of the game is bosses do anything they can to pass there workload (that they are being payed to do) onto an underling.

Any "boss" that does that should be gone in an eyeblink. "It's not my job" is unacceptable for "bosses" or for employees.

Originally Posted by DwaynieAD

furthermore I was raised to go above and beyond and I do. so way to try to paint me with your little broad stroked brush. as someone who works hard and goes above and beyond all I get for my trouble across several jobs i've had is added workload, lowered thanks, and the promotions go to the lazy people. we wouldnt want them in production now would we.

Paint? If you are a person who pulls their weight and can be counted on when needed, then you are a very valuable employee and I don't understand why you are arguing with me. If you have employers that respond to such behavior with lowered thanks and promotions of people who don't do anything, then I suspect those companies won't be around long. But anticipating that the goal of any boss is to exploit you is not a good way to approach a job.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by iamlowsound

As an engineer, moving up into management still means that you are doing engineering work.

Depends on the company.

In my first job at a 75,000 person tech giant - it definitely didn't mean that... and by engineering work, I don't mean crap like "project management". I mean actual DESIGN work.

At my previous job in a small 30 person company, you still did all the engineering work... plus manage.

Originally Posted by iamlowsound

Heck, the president of my company (350 technical employees with 10 offices world wide) still does engineering work from time to time.

"From time to time".

What about the guy that wants to be the best design engineer possible, but has zero desire at all to manage anyone? You know - the guy who got an engineering degree and not an MBA on purpose.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by Fishheadjoe

Jobs are no longer jobs for life... they stopped making gold watches for employees a couple of decades ago... use that experience garnered from you employer, to find another position with another company... you will bring your experience and knowledge to a new organization that should match your career goals.

After repeatedly doing so - I've come to the conclusion that there are almost no organizations that match my career goals. The technical expert who is just that basically isn't allowed to exist anymore.

[Fishheadjoe]

Originally Posted by aborgman

After repeatedly doing so - I've come to the conclusion that there are almost no organizations that match my career goals. The technical expert who is just that basically isn't allowed to exist anymore.

I have run into this situation many times and the solution I suggest to many, is to go out and contract your expertise to whom ever will pay for it.
This frees you up to pick and choose who to work for, eliminates the pain of company politics and usually keeps you up to date on changes in your field.
And typically, it also means that you have access to more money.
Sure there are down sides like job certainty, but how much job certainty does anyone have in todays employment climate?
Might as well hang your hat on the only thing you can count on... yourself!
Fishheadjoe

[bolophonic]

I have always been one of those 110% types at work and while that approach has kept me continually employed for the last 25 years, it has more often than not resulted in a heavier workload. Making myself indispensable to my employers has kept me continually employed for 25 years.

At my last job, I was the only employee -- just me and the boss. It only took the boss about a year into my tenure before he basically stopped even coming into the shop. I gave it all I had and in the end, all I wound up with was two jobs for the price of one. My ethic never allowed me to slack off or reduce the quality of my work.

[Fishheadjoe]

Originally Posted by bolophonic

I have always been one of those 110% types at work and while that approach has kept me continually employed for the last 25 years, it has more often than not resulted in a heavier workload. Making myself indispensable to my employers has kept me continually employed for 25 years.

At my last job, I was the only employee -- just me and the boss. It only took the boss about a year into my tenure before he basically stopped even coming into the shop. I gave it all I had and in the end, all I wound up with was two jobs for the price of one. My ethic never allowed me to slack off or reduce the quality of my work.

Did you request an increase based on your accomplishments as well as increased work load?
If yes and you were declined, I would say it would be time to consider another company... but given the circumstances, it would seem unlikely that your efforts would go unrecognized, should the boss want to maintain their current ways. At that point, the boss has to weigh the value that you running the shop has vs potentially loosing the employee to competition and the boss actually having to come to the shop.
Sometimes you have to push to get what you want/deserve.
"Those who ask, tend to get... those who don't, tend to hope and wait".
Fishheadjoe

[hrodbert696]

Originally Posted by aborgman

Where does this leave the person for whom a move up definitively means a move out of the career they had envisioned?

Say the case of an engineer where the only move up is to managing, and the person in question actually wants to be an engineer - not a manager?

Originally Posted by iamlowsound

As an engineer, moving up into management still means that you are doing engineering work. Heck, the president of my company (350 technical employees with 10 offices world wide) still does engineering work from time to time.

lowsound

Originally Posted by Fishheadjoe

Jobs are no longer jobs for life... they stopped making gold watches for employees a couple of decades ago... use that experience garnered from you employer, to find another position with another company... you will bring your experience and knowledge to a new organization that should match your career goals.
Folks ask me all the time, when they should move and to where. I tell them the same thing... as soon as you stop learning on a job, it's time to consider making a move.
In the I.T. field, if your not learning, you are doing yourself and your career a dis-service. Look for companies that invest in themselves and their employees. Do your research.
Ok, I am getting a bit scattered here... I'll stop!
Fishheadjoe

Originally Posted by aborgman

After repeatedly doing so - I've come to the conclusion that there are almost no organizations that match my career goals. The technical expert who is just that basically isn't allowed to exist anymore.

Originally Posted by Fishheadjoe

I have run into this situation many times and the solution I suggest to many, is to go out and contract your expertise to whom ever will pay for it.
This frees you up to pick and choose who to work for, eliminates the pain of company politics and usually keeps you up to date on changes in your field.
And typically, it also means that you have access to more money.
Sure there are down sides like job certainty, but how much job certainty does anyone have in todays employment climate?
Might as well hang your hat on the only thing you can count on... yourself!
Fishheadjoe

I'm not an engineer, but I think Fishheadjoe and I are coming from the same place. The next job may not be a promotion into management and away from the work you like and are good at; it may be a lateral move into another company, where now you will be the fresh blood keeping them on the cutting edge, rather than the "legacy" employee who was really valuable in yesteryear but can now be overlooked.

It's one thing to bemoan the way the job market works, the ways it has changed, and call it exploitive and unfair -- all of which may be true -- and another to roll up your sleeves and ask, "how do I stay ahead of the changes, so that I'm not the one who gets left behind?" A lot of people would have been very happy fifty years ago repairing wind-up watches. That work just doesn't exist anymore. We can pause to shed a tear for its passing, but then we need to go find another job.

[bolophonic]

Originally Posted by Fishheadjoe

Did you request an increase based on your accomplishments as well as increased work load?
If yes and you were declined, I would say it would be time to consider another company... but given the circumstances, it would seem unlikely that your efforts would go unrecognized, should the boss want to maintain their current ways. At that point, the boss has to weigh the value that you running the shop has vs potentially loosing the employee to competition and the boss actually having to come to the shop.
Sometimes you have to push to get what you want/deserve.
"Those who ask, tend to get... those who don't, tend to hope and wait".
Fishheadjoe

Oh, don't even get me started... the guy was a superb technician, but a horrible boss. When he effectively stopped showing up, I explained to him that he was going to not only lose his investment on training me, but that I would become his competition AND he would have to do the work himself when I was no longer his employee.

Of course I demanded and received periodic raises, but never to the level that would have been appropriate for the dedication and expertise he was getting. His compromise for helping with the workload was to hire another technician for me to train and then lay me off (mercifully) once that guy was proficient.

After six months, the other technician left to manage a larger, more professional shop. The original boss is floundering as his former tech has already siphoned off several clients. I am taking time off as a full-time parent to my son and there is a orthopedic technician position waiting for me when I am ready.

[Fishheadjoe]

Originally Posted by hrodbert696

I'm not an engineer, but I think Fishheadjoe and I are coming from the same place. The next job may not be a promotion into management and away from the work you like and are good at; it may be a lateral move into another company, where now you will be the fresh blood keeping them on the cutting edge, rather than the "legacy" employee who was really valuable in yesteryear but can now be overlooked.

It's one thing to bemoan the way the job market works, the ways it has changed, and call it exploitive and unfair -- all of which may be true -- and another to roll up your sleeves and ask, "how do I stay ahead of the changes, so that I'm not the one who gets left behind?" A lot of people would have been very happy fifty years ago repairing wind-up watches. That work just doesn't exist anymore. We can pause to shed a tear for its passing, but then we need to go find another job.

^^^^^THIS!
Also, what are you doing personally to keep your competitive edge? You are no longer competing with your next door neighbour for a job, you are competing globally. We see it here every day when folks talk about American made vs off shore manufacturing.
Are you;
-subscribbing to periodicals geared specifically to your field?
-joined special interest group of like minded professionals?
-taking courses on your own time to increase your value to your current and future employers?
-attending trade shows?
-are you on Linked In?
-is your job/function about to be come redundant as a result of factors beyond your control? If yes, what are you personally doing to hedge your bets?

These are just some of the things I recommend to my clients from a career planning perspective.
Just remember, each situation is different and there is no black or white... learn to thrive in grey!
Fishheadjoe