Terminator series question...

[powderfinger]

So last night I finally got around to watching Terminator Salvation, which I thought was ok. I was a huge fan of the original 3, but I got to thiking last night... and something isnt setting well with me on this. And this something, IMO, almost makes the whole series pointless.

Lets go back to the original movie. Skynet sends a T-800 Terminator (Arnold) back to 1984 to kill Sarah Connor, so that John Connor will never be born, and henceforth become the leader of the resistance.

Let's say that The Terminator would have been successful in his endeavour. Lets say Sarah would have been terminaed, and John Connor never born. This would only create an alternate timeline, where John Connor ceases to exist. In other words, John Connor would still exist in the original timeline.

This almost makes the whole series pointless, because sending these Terminators back in time never changes anything.. it only creates alt. realties. Any thoughts here, fellow sci fi nerds?

[Relic]

Well, there's always the theory that time does not really exist and everything that has ever happened or ever will happen is actually all happening right now but our brains are too limited to perceive this, so we perceive our reality and time in a nice, neat linear fashion. Because of that there is an almost unlimited number of which in which John Connor would never have been born anyway...

[hover]

At least the t.v. series lent plausible scenarios for these loopholes, but it also displayed a pre-destined, ducks in a row, rely on history mentality...so that the sleeper renegades AND the sleeper Terminators can be placed accordingly... The alternate timeline / realities thing has been used to good effect (i.e. the Star Trek reboot) and at other times not so much. Either way, doesn't excuse the fact that T:Salvation is a sucky movie. So was T:3. Just wretched. Ok, you have a fembot liquid terminator that only has so much mass, but can somehow become a huge floating mechanical robot, which can shoot portions of herself with propulsion and explosive properties, and not so much as lose a boob in the re-constitution process....how can a hememetic poly-alloy that hasn't even been invented yet replenish itself let alone display impossible attributes / properties? Oh, that's right, because it's Michael Bay style film making.

[powderfinger]

Originally Posted by hover

At least the t.v. series lent plausible scenarios for these loopholes. The alternate timeline / realities thing has been used to good effect (i.e. the Star Trek reboot) and at other times not so much. Either way, doesn't excuse the fact that T:Salvation is a sucky movie. So was T:3. Just wretched.

Exactly.... just because an alternate universe was created by Nero entering the wormhole and killing Kirk's father (hence, creating an alt. timeline), does not mean that the previous timeline never happened... heck, old Spock is a relic of a future, alternate reality. This is sort of how I view the Terminator movies... alt. timelines are created, the current one is deleted/erased. It goes on..

Relic, I understand what you are saying as well, although its hard to wrap my brain around totally

[Jimbob Jones]

There's always going to be holes in movies that involve time travel. So far we've discussed the 'back to the future' theory, that you can change the future by altering the past.

I like the Douglas Adams approach, where everything fits together like a jigsaw; so if you go back in time and become your own grandfather, so what? Nothing actually changes when you get back to the present day.

[mmbongo]

Originally Posted by powderfinger

So last night I finally got around to watching Terminator Salvation, which I thought was ok. I was a huge fan of the original 3, but I got to thiking last night... and something isnt setting well with me on this. And this something, IMO, almost makes the whole series pointless.

Let's ponder, shall we?

Yeah they sent the Terminator back to kill Sarah Connor.

They also sent Kyle Reese back to protect Sarah.

Kyle Reese proceeds to knock her up, resulting in John Connor being born.

Had they never sent the Terminator in the first place, they never would have sent Kyle, and John Connor would have never been born. So yes, the whole thing is pointless!

[hbarcat]

Dude, it's just a movie.

[Selta]

You're making assumptions about time, how we proceed "through" it, and alternate timeline/universes. Most of these things we only have loose theories on, let alone any kind of hard fact. Read more from Dr. Michio Kaku...

[powderfinger]

Originally Posted by mmbongo

Let's ponder, shall we?

Yeah they sent the Terminator back to kill Sarah Connor.

They also sent Kyle Reese back to protect Sarah.

Kyle Reese proceeds to knock her up, resulting in John Connor being born.

Had they never sent the Terminator in the first place, they never would have sent Kyle, and John Connor would have never been born. So yes, the whole thing is pointless!

Not exactly. John Connor had another father in the original time line (the one from which T-800 and Kyle were sent back to 1984 from). It was only in this new alt. timeline that Kyle would be John's father.

Go forward to Terminator Salvation. Neither Kyle Reese, nor the Terminator go back in time this time around. But you don't see John Connor fading away like Marty McFly on Back to the Future because of it. Even the director in an interview admitted John had to have had another/other fathers in other timelines. It used to be thought of as a paradox until the director said this....

[powderfinger]

Originally Posted by Ray Salamon

You're making assumptions about time, how we proceed "through" it, and alternate timeline/universes. Most of these things we only have loose theories on, let alone any kind of hard fact. Read more from Dr. Michio Kaku...

I actually did read Dr. Kaku's book that he wrote about 17 years ago or so. I forget the name, but it was about the 4th dimension. Interesting stuff.... however, its been so long I forgot some of the details of the time travel section. Will have to re-read soon.

[Selta]

Originally Posted by powderfinger

I actually did read Dr. Kaku's book that he wrote about 17 years ago or so. I forget the name, but it was about the 4th dimension. Interesting stuff.... however, its been so long I forgot some of the details of the time travel section. Will have to re-read soon.

You really need to get with the times. He's put out a few books... you probably read Hyperspace, which goes through timewarps and IIRC the nth dimension, not "4th" (which is considered time in the modern, post-Einstein era - you probably mean 5th). I suggest Visions and Physics of the Impossible as good places to go now. Physics of the Future is kinda cool, too.

[Russell foulkes]

[/quote]
Go forward to Terminator Salvation. Neither Kyle Reese, nor the Terminator go back in time this time around. But you don't see John Connor fading away like Marty McFly on Back to the Future because of it. Even the director in an interview admitted John had to have had another/other fathers in other timelines. It used to be thought of as a paradox until the director said this....[/quote]
which director though?

[Jhengsman]

The Sarah Connor Chronicles started with a teenaged John jumping past the events of Terminator 3 and ended with him jumping to the future where the resistance was in place without him

[masturbasser]

I'm a huge Arnold fan but have just never been a fan of the terminator series. I read on a movie site that he's signed up to appear in T5. A shame they made the new Conan movie without him. The original is IMHO Arnie's best movie and the director/writer John Milius had penned a sequel titled Crown of Iron but apparently Arnold was too busy being the governator and the project was scrapped. BTW the Conan reboot with Jason Momoa looks completely craptacular.

[JimmyM]

john milius? the turd who inflicted the world with red dawn, the worst movie of all time? pass.

[masturbasser]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

john milius? the turd who inflicted the world with red dawn, the worst movie of all time? pass.

Come on now. Red Dawn wasn't that bad. I'll admit that my love for it has waned considerably since my childhood but I still consider it a piece of 80's nostalgia.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

john milius? the turd who inflicted the world with red dawn, the worst movie of all time? pass.

Bite yer tongue! I love Red Dawn. It was as cheesy and corny as the 80's were as a decade.

Supposedly there was a remake ready to hit the theaters but for some reason they shelved it.

[machine gewehr]

Originally Posted by Relic

Well, there's always the theory that time does not really exist and everything that has ever happened or ever will happen is actually all happening right now but our brains are too limited to perceive this, so we perceive our reality and time in a nice, neat linear fashion. Because of that there is an almost unlimited number of which in which John Connor would never have been born anyway...

Whooa...suddenly I felt so tiny,insignificant...

I know we are so but remembering it through stuff like this hurts my head.

Also,I don't care about any of the Terminator movies except T2.
They're all ok movies but T2 will always be a special movie for me.

The TV series however was awesome as it included Summer Glau.I'd watch anything Summer's a part of.

Also,looking for logic in a movie is pretty pointless,add the fact that we know nothing and have only theories about time travel.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by hover

how can a hememetic poly-alloy that hasn't even been invented yet replenish itself let alone display impossible attributes / properties?

Because it hasn't been invented yet.

Daniel Dennett calls this Philosopher's Syndrome: "Mistaking a failure of the imagination for an insight into necessity."

[i_got_a_mohawk]

I dare say it depends on if you subscribe to the multiverse theory or not.