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  #1  
Old 01-18-2011, 04:24 PM
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Undergraduate Education a Waste?

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Yahoo article about undergraduate education in American universities. I personally don't agree with everything it says, however, I strongly believe that the first two years of college are largely a waste. The irony is that they had to do a study to figure this out when they simply could of asked handful of students from every college campus what they thought of their undergraduate education and they would of came to the same conclusion - it's high school 2.0, except students are paying big bucks for it and are receiving little in return.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110118/...llege_learning

By ERIC GORSKI, AP Education Writer Eric Gorski, Ap Education Writer – Tue Jan 18, 12:43 pm ET

You are told that to make it in life, you must go to college. You work hard to get there. You or your parents drain savings or take out huge loans to pay for it all.

And you end up learning ... not much.

A study of more than 2,300 undergraduates found 45 percent of students show no significant improvement in the key measures of critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing by the end of their sophomore years.

[Related: Do elite colleges produce the best-paid graduates?]

Not much is asked of students, either. Half did not take a single course requiring 20 pages of writing during their prior semester, and one-third did not take a single course requiring even 40 pages of reading per week.

The findings are in a new book, "Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses," by sociologists Richard Arum of New York University and Josipa Roksa of the University of Virginia. An accompanying report argues against federal mandates holding schools accountable, a prospect long feared in American higher education.

"The great thing — if you can call it that — is that it's going to spark a dialogue and focus on the actual learning issue," said David Paris, president of the New Leadership Alliance for Student Learning and Accountability, which is pressing the cause in higher education. "What kind of intellectual growth are we seeing in college?"

The study, an unusually large-scale effort to track student learning over time, comes as the federal government, reformers and others argue that the U.S. must produce more college graduates to remain competitive globally. But if students aren't learning much, that calls into question whether boosting graduation rates will provide that edge.

"It's not the case that giving out more credentials is going to make the U.S. more economically competitive," Arum said in an interview. "It requires academic rigor ... You can't just get it through osmosis at these institutions."

The findings also will likely spark a debate over what helps and hurts students learn. To sum up, it's good to lead a monk's existence: Students who study alone and have heavier reading and writing loads do well.

The book is based on information from 24 schools, meant to be a representative sample, that provided Collegiate Learning Assessment data on students who took the standardized test in their first semester in fall 2005 and at the end of their sophomore years in spring 2007. The schools took part on the condition that their institutions not be identified.

The Collegiate Learning Assessment has its share of critics who say it doesn't capture learning in specialized majors or isn't a reliable measure of college performance because so many factors are beyond their control.

[Related: Top colleges chosen by company recruiters]

The research found an average-scoring student in fall 2005 scored seven percentage points higher in spring of 2007 on the assessment. In other words, those who entered college in the 50th percentile would rise to the equivalent of the 57th after their sophomore years.

Among the findings outlined in the book and report, which tracked students through four years of college:

_Overall, the picture doesn't brighten much over four years. After four years, 36 percent of students did not demonstrate significant improvement, compared to 45 percent after two.

_Students who studied alone, read and wrote more, attended more selective schools and majored in traditional arts and sciences majors posted greater learning gains.

[Related: Colleges that bring the highest paycheck]

_Social engagement generally does not help student performance. Students who spent more time studying with peers showed diminishing growth and students who spent more time in the Greek system had decreased rates of learning, while activities such as working off campus, participating in campus clubs and volunteering did not impact learning.

_Students from families with different levels of parental education enter college with different learning levels but learn at about the same rates while attending college. The racial gap between black and white students going in, however, widens: Black students improve their assessment scores at lower levels than whites.

Arum and Roksa spread the blame, pointing to students who don't study much and seek easy courses and a culture at colleges and universities that values research over good teaching.

Subsequent research found students one year out of college are not faring well: One-third moved back home, and 10 percent were unemployed. The findings are troubling news for an engaged citizenry, Arum said. Almost half of those surveyed said they rarely if ever discuss politics or public affairs with others either in person or online.

The report warns that federally mandated fixes similar to "No Child Left Behind" in K-12 education would be "counterproductive," in part because researchers are still learning how to measure learning. But it does make clear that accountability should be emphasized more at the institutional level, starting with college presidents.

Some colleges and universities do not need convincing. The University of Charleston, in West Virginia, has beefed up writing assignments in disciplines such as nursing and biology to improve learning.

President Edwin Welch is among more than 70 college and university presidents pledging to take steps to improve student learning, use evidence to improve instruction and publicize results.

"I think we do need more transparency," Welch said. "I think a student at a private institution who might go into debt for $40,000 or $50,000 has the right to know what he can learn at the institution."
  #2  
Old 01-18-2011, 04:45 PM
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In retrospect, I'm glad I went to one of the cheapest universities in the state (and probably in the U.S.), instead of going for a more expensive option - I have zero student loan debts, and my friends with literally over 50k in loans from "nicer" schools got out of college on the same foot as me, and all of our salaries are comparable.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:47 PM
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Im glad I stopped my undergrad studies. I also have no debt (because of schooling), and am making more than I would had I continued a formal education.
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  #4  
Old 01-18-2011, 04:52 PM
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I'll agree that in some instances, the first couple years are largely to waste, but university life is more than just working, the social aspect and being away on your own etc.

There is also a fair percentage that don't make it past the first couple years, so it still works well to thin out the numbers as well as getting people used to a completelly different style of learning.

Knowledge-wise, the first couple years (of my course) really bulked up the general understanding of the field, but the final years focused much more on specifics.


In the article, while it is a large percentage, it is still less than half of students that show no real improvement.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:56 PM
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The RateMyProfessors website has ratings for "easiness" and "hotness." Care to guess why kids get nothing out of college?
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  #6  
Old 01-18-2011, 04:57 PM
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do an arts/humanities degree, you'll be fine. employers love those.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jrthebassguy View Post
In retrospect, I'm glad I went to one of the cheapest universities in the state (and probably in the U.S.), instead of going for a more expensive option - I have zero student loan debts, and my friends with literally over 50k in loans from "nicer" schools got out of college on the same foot as me, and all of our salaries are comparable.
Yup... My daughter has this idea in her head that she wants to go to USC and I keep telling her she can go if she gets a full ride. I can't even afford 1/10th of what it costs for one semester out-of-state at USC. She's just in 8th grade now so hopefully she figures it out in the next 4 years that USC is pretty much a pipe dream.
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Old 01-18-2011, 05:04 PM
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IMO it depends on what you're looking to get out of it all. In many ways NO education is ever wasted if you actually apply yourself to it. That's the problem these days - everyone looks outward and thinks "what will this do for me" and not inward and thinks "what can I get out of this".

Now get off my lawn!
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  #9  
Old 01-18-2011, 05:09 PM
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IMO it depends on what you're looking to get out of it all. In many ways NO education is ever wasted if you actually apply yourself to it. That's the problem these days - everyone looks outward and thinks "what will this do for me" and not inward and thinks "what can I get out of this".

Now get off my lawn!
I agree with this as well. I have a business degree from CU, but most of my electives were in the arts & humanities. People I worked with on business school projects and stuff would always give me the wide-eyed, weirded-out looks when I told them I had an exam on Boccaccio's Decameron or a story due in Creative Writing. Fact is, those classes were far more interesting than Accounting and Business Law... You just can't make any money with them.
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  #10  
Old 01-18-2011, 06:19 PM
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Thanks for posting this.

Here's the thing: college students are adults, and in America, college is a service paid for by the customer, aka the student (or family, etc., on his/her behalf). That means that the what-you-get-out-of-it-depends-on-what-you-put-into-it cliche is true in spades for American colleges. The 45% of students who show no significant improvement are the 45% who put no significant effort into the education that they are paying for. Based on my experience teaching college students, that number sounds about right.

There is nothing a professor or institution can do to force paying adults to work harder at their education -- they are not our employees, we are theirs. If they want to flush their money down the toilet on an expensive opportunity that they're not going to take advantage of, who is going to stop them? It's rather like someone who blows a lot of money on an expensive gym membership but never actually goes to work out.

The problem is that so many students continue to think of college as though it's more high school -- a place where they are kids who have to jump through just enough hoops to keep the grown-ups happy. That's totally the wrong paradigm. But it's the way a lot of students are.
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Relic View Post
IMO it depends on what you're looking to get out of it all. In many ways NO education is ever wasted if you actually apply yourself to it. That's the problem these days - everyone looks outward and thinks "what will this do for me" and not inward and thinks "what can I get out of this".

Now get off my lawn!
+1

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...It's rather like someone who blows a lot of money on an expensive gym membership but never actually goes to work out.

The problem is that so many students continue to think of college as though it's more high school -- a place where they are kids who have to jump through just enough hoops to keep the grown-ups happy. That's totally the wrong paradigm. But it's the way a lot of students are.
I was about to post that that situation is no different than learning your instrument. Somebody gotta woodshed!
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Old 01-18-2011, 06:50 PM
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The RateMyProfessors website has ratings for "easiness" and "hotness." Care to guess why kids get nothing out of college?
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  #13  
Old 01-18-2011, 06:58 PM
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I got a lot out of my first two years of undergrad
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:03 PM
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While I can't speak for all students, I can speak for myself. I have applied myself in all of my college classes and have honestly gotten very little out of most of them (the exceptions being my upper-level/major/elective courses). My undergrad Biology, English, Calculus, and History courses have all been rehashes of my (none AP) high school classes. I honestly got nothing out of most of those classes because I already knew everything that they taught going into them - and yet I had to take all of them! At roughly $2,000-$4,000 a semester for two years (not including housing, books, food, gas, and other costs), you quickly realize that's no small fee just to take classes you already did in high school. Add into the equation that most of these classes are now being taught by TAs (graduate students) who could care less if their students learn anything and you soon realize how much of a scam the undergraduate years of college can be. It's really not surprising that many students see college as high school 2.0, because for many that's what it is their first two years.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:14 PM
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I'm getting undergrad degrees in EE/CompE. While most engineering classes are relevant, a lot of the others aren't, save for math and science classes. I don't see a real burning need for degrees other than engineering, math, sciences and some others. I might be slightly biased though. >_>;
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:25 PM
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There are some benifits, but yes, college or university education is generally pretty worthless on the job.. unless of course you are learning how to teach other college students this irrelevant information
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:54 PM
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I'm getting undergrad degrees in EE/CompE. While most engineering classes are relevant, a lot of the others aren't, save for math and science classes. I don't see a real burning need for degrees other than engineering, math, sciences and some others. I might be slightly biased though. >_>;
Depends on your goals.
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Old 01-18-2011, 07:58 PM
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Old 01-18-2011, 08:21 PM
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The issue is a student culture that doesn't value the actual act of learning, not a failure of the institutions themselves IMO.

The typical student doesn't see much value to the actual information and skills she learns during those four years, she just sees the value in the nominal degree itself. If that's what she believes, of course she'll take the easiest route she possibly can to get that little piece of paper with her name on it at the end of four years.

I'm not making a value statement on whether that's the right or wrong way to think about education, I'm just saying universities offer lots of opportunities to really learn. The simple fact is students often choose not to take advantage of these opportunities.
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Old 01-18-2011, 09:12 PM
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The issue is a student culture that doesn't value the actual act of learning, not a failure of the institutions themselves IMO.

The typical student doesn't see much value to the actual information and skills she learns during those four years, she just sees the value in the nominal degree itself. If that's what she believes, of course she'll take the easiest route she possibly can to get that little piece of paper with her name on it at the end of four years.

I'm not making a value statement on whether that's the right or wrong way to think about education, I'm just saying universities offer lots of opportunities to really learn. The simple fact is students often choose not to take advantage of these opportunities.
And this, is where the whole system fails.

Pretty much. Most students (myself included) only go to uni because they want to earn more money doing less work. What we actually learn throughout the degree is largely pointless in that one, it likely won't even apply to our field of work and two, that there is no incentive to learn it.

The way the system works is that instead if encouraging you to learn a reasonable amount over a 4 year period so that you can apply it in your field of work, it instead encourages you to learn a stupid amount of information, do the exam, then forget about it completely because you are probably never going to use it again and couldn't possibly remember it if you wanted to.

Degrees are completely useless, university education is not. Instead of making people spend 4 years repeatedly learning (and then usually forgetting) a huge amount of information, giving them a piece of paper and then saying "Go get a job", then need to give you the job, then give you a place to go learn how to get better at it.
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