Walking the fine line of pride.....

[MJ5150]

I had an interesting discussion with a couple friends and a stranger at a coffee shop today. It was a mixed group of social, racial, and economical backgrounds.

Seems like most all cultures teach from youth the idea of having pride in yourself and your work. They teach to show that pride as a way of respect to your past and to earn respect now.

But where does it go wrong to where you get to the extremes of people showing prejudice based on their own pride? Is it a fundamental lack of pride that causes people to rise up and show extreme pride, like almost compensating for their previous lack of pride? Our group discussion never really came to any solutions.

As for me, I have a certain amount of pride based on where I came from and the life I have carved out for myself at age 38. To be honest, I have to keep that pride in check so I do not start to feel better than or superior to others.

-Mike

[MakiSupaStar]

Well coming from someone who has absolutely no pride, I can say that a certain amount of pride depends on upbringing. Where you go from there is a conscious choice.

[Deluge Of Sound]

It depends on the nature of the pride.

If it is earned, through talent, skill, tenacity, or some other facet that has been the direct result of something you do/did, then its perfectly fine. For example, Ray Allen should be proud of his three point shot.

If its inherited pride (due to race, social status, etc.), then the opposite is in effect.

[macaroni tony]

In my 26 years of experience, I've learned that you have to have the right balance of pride and humility. A rich man may be proud of what he's done to get his riches, and a poor man may be proud of what he can accomplish with having little to work with. But both can be overcome by their pride, to the point where they look down on people who don't live their lives the same exact way they do (I personally know both kinds of people). They forget that deep inside, we are all just dust. Too much energy focused on yourself and how great you are is counterproductive to getting along with others.

OTOH, if you have no pride at all in anything, you will never accomplish anything. For example, I take pride in my bass playing, even though I suck at it. But my pride forces me to practice every day, and to challenge myself to keep coming up with musical, interesting, and tasty bass lines.

Knowing your story, Mike, you've got to have a certain amount of pride for the kind of life you lead today. Otherwise, you'd end up right back to square one

[EricF]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

Well coming from someone who has absolutely no pride, I can say that a certain amount of pride depends on upbringing. Where you go from there is a conscious choice.

Actally, Maki, it appears that you have a lot of pride about your professed lack of pride.

[macaroni tony]

^ hardy har har har harrr!!!!!

[hbarcat]

I think it's inherently dangerous to take pride in something you have because of a group association such as racial pride or ethnic pride. It' just a very short step from "I'm proud of my group because my group is special." to "My group is superior to other groups."

[macaroni tony]

^ Yes

[Spraeg]

It's fine to be proud of your heritage, who you are, and where you come from. It's the few who take it to the extreme who destroy that for everyone else. There's a big difference between "I'm proud to be 'X'" and "Anyone who isn't 'X' is inferior". It's a big part of what makes you who you are, and it's a different kind of pride from things which are earned. I have nothing against other races, cultures, languages, etc... but I still have my family crest tatooed on my chest because I'm proud of my heritage, history, and what it represents. To address the original point though, it can be either extreme that leads to prejudice- either a lack of pride in yourself that leads one to try and bring others down, or a high-minded snobbiness that leads one to believe that his/her accomplishments or history are better than those of others.

[standupright]

i think where it goes wrong is when pride is mixed with ego. you then go from feeling proud of your accomplishments or what have you, to feeling superior about them.

[Steve]

Pride is one of the seven deadlies.

It's fairly comforting and appeals to a nasty part of human psychology. It's the dark side of dignity and self respect.

If you have dignity and respect for yourself and others things will happen that you could be prideful of but in reality, there is nothing to take pride in because you did what anyone with a little self respect should have done as a matter of standard good behavior.

Take pride in a job well done?
Fine but, doing the job well is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Take pride in your success?
Fine but, working hard to improve things is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Pride in your heritage?
Why? You weren't there. You didn't storm the Bastille or sign the Declaration of Independence. You honor it. Respect it. Be thankful for it. There's no cause to take "pride" in the accomplishments of others.

Anything that an individual can take "pride" in really should be acknowledged as the result of many things of which effort is only one. Opportunity, help and luck allowed the effort to bare fruit.

Yelling, "Go Gators!" is one thing but beating you chest about your own accomplishments or those of others? That's just superiority and nothing good comes from expressing that.

IMHO

[standupright]

Originally Posted by Steve

Pride is one of the seven deadlies.

It's fairly comforting and appeals to a nasty part of human psychology. It's the dark side of dignity and self respect.

If you have dignity and respect for yourself and others things will happen that you could be prideful of but in reality, there is nothing to take pride in because you did what anyone with a little self respect should have done as a matter of standard good behavior.

Take pride in a job well done?
Fine but, doing the job well is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Take pride in your success?
Fine but, working hard to improve things is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Pride in your heritage?
Why? You weren't there. You didn't storm the Bastille or sign the Declaration of Independence. You honor it. Respect it. Be thankful for it. There's no cause to take "pride" in the accomplishments of others.

Anything that an individual can take "pride" in really should be acknowledged as the result of many things of which effort is only one. Opportunity, help and luck allowed the effort to bare fruit.

Yelling, "Go Gators!" is one thing but beating you chest about your own accomplishments or those of others? That's just superiority and nothing good comes from expressing that.

IMHO

and now that i have re-educated myself on the definition of pride, i agree with this completely.


pride....not only one of the deadly sins, but considered to be the deadliest.

[jive1]

Let me put a different angle on this.....

I grew up as one of the handfuls Asian kids in my neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. I'm talking less than 10. Now, I love my old neighborhood, my friends from there, and to this day I still have fond feelings for it.

But, kids are kids, and kids can be mean. So as the only Korean kid in my neighborhood, there were some jerks that picked on my because of my race. Sometimes it was just a little ching-chon-ching-chong kind of thing. But sometimes it was "Korean people are goofy", "Korean people can't do xxxxx", or "Korean folk have no business doing xxxxx". I didn't get it just from my peers, but from kids older than me and sometimes even adults. And coming from a good Korean family where you respected your elders, sometimes you believed what they said. Now, my mother went to war against me de-Asianizing myself. Told me about the great things about our culture, heritage, etc. Told me I shouldn't be ashamed, but instead proud. I can't tell you how much those speeches from Mom kept me sane for another school year.

Now was my Mom trying to instill pride? Sure. Was she trying to say we were superior? No. But, that instillation of pride was what I needed to survive in my hood and not feel inferior. It has served me well. IME, once people realized I wasn't gonna get rattled by their ignorance, and was still gonna be proud of who I am and live my life, the picking on was reduced. In fact, I earned respect because of it. I didn't hide out in Koreatown or have to because I was part of the hood. It's still MY neighborhood.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by EricF

Actally, Maki, it appears that you have a lot of pride about your professed lack of pride.

I am proud of my lack of pride. I had to work hard to become shameless.

[EricF]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

I am proud of my lack of pride. I had to work hard to become shameless.

You've apparently done a fine job.

[macaroni tony]

Originally Posted by Steve

Pride is one of the seven deadlies.

It's fairly comforting and appeals to a nasty part of human psychology. It's the dark side of dignity and self respect.

If you have dignity and respect for yourself and others things will happen that you could be prideful of but in reality, there is nothing to take pride in because you did what anyone with a little self respect should have done as a matter of standard good behavior.

Take pride in a job well done?
Fine but, doing the job well is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Take pride in your success?
Fine but, working hard to improve things is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Pride in your heritage?
Why? You weren't there. You didn't storm the Bastille or sign the Declaration of Independence. You honor it. Respect it. Be thankful for it. There's no cause to take "pride" in the accomplishments of others.

Anything that an individual can take "pride" in really should be acknowledged as the result of many things of which effort is only one. Opportunity, help and luck allowed the effort to bare fruit.

Yelling, "Go Gators!" is one thing but beating you chest about your own accomplishments or those of others? That's just superiority and nothing good comes from expressing that.

IMHO

I love the way you put this, Steve. And just based on the way you put it, pride is absolutely unnecessary.
But looking at my post and looking at yours, I just see the definition of the word a tad differently than you do. This doesn't really fly against anything you said, but I think a certain sense of pride, as far as taking ownership of things that you are responsible for taking care of, is proper for as far as it helps you accomplish what you need to. But pride in a "hey-lookit-what-I-did" kinda thing is not.

[NJL]

Originally Posted by jive1

Let me put a different angle on this.....

I grew up as one of the handfuls Asian kids in my neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. I'm talking less than 10. Now, I love my old neighborhood, my friends from there, and to this day I still have fond feelings for it.

But, kids are kids, and kids can be mean. So as the only Korean kid in my neighborhood, there were some jerks that picked on my because of my race. Sometimes it was just a little ching-chon-ching-chong kind of thing. But sometimes it was "Korean people are goofy", "Korean people can't do xxxxx", or "Korean folk have no business doing xxxxx". I didn't get it just from my peers, but from kids older than me and sometimes even adults. And coming from a good Korean family where you respected your elders, sometimes you believed what they said. Now, my mother went to war against me de-Asianizing myself. Told me about the great things about our culture, heritage, etc. Told me I shouldn't be ashamed, but instead proud. I can't tell you how much those speeches from Mom kept me sane for another school year.

Now was my Mom trying to instill pride? Sure. Was she trying to say we were superior? No. But, that instillation of pride was what I needed to survive in my hood and not feel inferior. It has served me well. IME, once people realized I wasn't gonna get rattled by their ignorance, and was still gonna be proud of who I am and live my life, the picking on was reduced. In fact, I earned respect because of it. I didn't hide out in Koreatown or have to because I was part of the hood. It's still MY neighborhood.

Say what you want, but we all know you can't drive for ####.

[sloasdaylight]

Originally Posted by NJL

Say what you want, but we all know you can't drive for ####.

SICKBURN!

[drteeth]

Originally Posted by Steve

Pride is one of the seven deadlies.

It's fairly comforting and appeals to a nasty part of human psychology. It's the dark side of dignity and self respect.

If you have dignity and respect for yourself and others things will happen that you could be prideful of but in reality, there is nothing to take pride in because you did what anyone with a little self respect should have done as a matter of standard good behavior.

Take pride in a job well done?
Fine but, doing the job well is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Take pride in your success?
Fine but, working hard to improve things is kinda what you're supposed to do. Isn't it?

Pride in your heritage?
Why? You weren't there. You didn't storm the Bastille or sign the Declaration of Independence. You honor it. Respect it. Be thankful for it. There's no cause to take "pride" in the accomplishments of others.

Anything that an individual can take "pride" in really should be acknowledged as the result of many things of which effort is only one. Opportunity, help and luck allowed the effort to bare fruit.

Yelling, "Go Gators!" is one thing but beating you chest about your own accomplishments or those of others? That's just superiority and nothing good comes from expressing that.

IMHO

I do not completely agree with this. I am proud of what I do (career-wise), because it is not what I am supposed to do, but I go the extra mile(s) to reach my personal goals.

Besides, imagine a person who is explicitly not proud of his work. What does that say about the opinion that person has about the quality of his work?

[Phalex]

Originally Posted by drteeth

Besides, imagine a person who is explicitly not proud of his work. What does that say about the opinion that person has about the quality of his work?

One of my favorite Gibran quotes:

"Work is love made visible. And if you cannot work with love but only with distaste, it is better that you should leave your work and sit at the gate of the temple and take alms of those who work with joy. For if you break bread with indifference, you bake bitter bread that feeds but half a man’s hunger. And if you grudge the crushing of grapes, your grudge distils a poison in the wine. And if you sing though as angels, and love not the singing, you muffle man’s ears to the voices of the day and the voices of the night."