We Really Can't "Get" Each Other

Dr. Cheese · #1 08-24-2011, 05:19 AM

Conversations About Race: There's a Limit

I thought this was a pretty interesting essay. I hope the political content is not too much. If so, please delete the thread, Moderator.

Quickie · #2 08-24-2011, 05:21 AM

Got it.

jp58 · #3 08-24-2011, 05:58 AM

I was actually going to blast the author of the article, but I can't seem to find a way to do it without getting into political and racial arenas, and I feel like the internet is not the greatest place to discuss either.

It'll have to say that the author proves himself right, whether intentional or not, that racism can come in the form of subtle bias, and it only takes a little bit to show a lot.

tom once dead · #4 08-24-2011, 06:03 AM

Another race thread

Quickie · #5 08-24-2011, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom once dead

Another race thread

yup.

**jmattbassplaya** · #6 08-24-2011, 06:23 AM

"He is not black and doesn't happen to be one of the nonblack people with a personal interest in black matters.

Here's the kicker: This guy is typical. As many of us know, quite a few white people do not "get it." Maybe most of them don't. It's why we think of race as a "complex" topic, of the sort where blacks are to speak and whites are largely to listen. This is what people really mean by America's needing to have a conversation about race, for example.

And I, for one, see no reason to think that many nonblack people ever will get it. For example, who can truly imagine a national conversation on race that would be considered a success? The sad fact is that beyond a certain point, there is a limit to how deeply we can "feel" each other, and that includes nonblack people and "the black thing." "

I've said it time and time again that it's these sorts of comments that put a lot of white people off from even trying to discuss race. If white people will supposedly 'never get it' then what's the point of opening a dialogue to begin with?

I also loved this tidbit:

"We hear that America is a melting pot -- which supposedly denies us our separate identities. People say, "When I look at you, I don't see color" -- same problem... Even the term "color-blind" is an insult because it denies diversity."

Really? Apparently the color of one's skin is the only way to signify diversity. Sounds to me like the author doesn't quite "get it" himself

JimB52 · #7 08-24-2011, 06:23 AM

Much easier to reach a consensus when you start with commonalities than differences.

Dr. Cheese · #8 08-24-2011, 07:06 AM

IMO, the point of McWhorter's essay is that black folks have expect a certain disconnect when on issues of race no matter how well intended because there are limits to how well different people or groups can understand each other.

Webtroll · #9 08-24-2011, 07:07 AM

can't say i agree with everything but it was an interesting read, thanks for sharing!

**jmattbassplaya** · #10 08-24-2011, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

IMO, the point of McWhorter's essay is that black folks have expect a certain disconnect when on issues of race no matter how well intended because there to how well different people or groups can understand each other.

That goes for all people of all races and cultures. This isn't just a black issue. I think that's why I get so ticked off when reading these articles. They are so blatantly narrow-minded, one-sided, and self-centered that it's sickening. These writers are supposedly suppose to be the people who are the most enlightened and insightful on racial issues and inequalities, and yet they're usually just as ignorant and ill-informed as the stereotypical racist buttmunch. In fact, they are so ignorant towards people of other ethnics that I dare call them racist, themselves.

Quickie · #11 08-24-2011, 07:32 AM

Well, this thread is on course towards disaster.

DeathFromBelow · #12 08-24-2011, 07:34 AM

I like racecars.

hover · #13 08-24-2011, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathFromBelow

I like racecars.

I like pallindromes in general.

Phalex · #14 08-24-2011, 07:36 AM

*Post sanitized and deleted due to political content.*.

Dr. Cheese · #15 08-24-2011, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

That goes for all people of all races and cultures. This isn't just a black issue. I think that's why I get so ticked off when reading these articles. They are so blatantly narrow-minded, one-sided, and self-centered that it's sickening. These writers are supposedly suppose to be the people who are the most enlightened and insightful on racial issues and inequalities, and yet they're usually just as ignorant and ill-informed as the stereotypical racist buttmunch. In fact, they are so ignorant towards people of other ethnics that I dare call them racist, themselves.

McWhorter is alot of things, but ignorant is not one of them. It cracks me up sometimes just how mad some people can get when a black person discusses race, no matter what that person says.

The fact that McWhorter's essay upset you so much really proves his point about the disconnect, and the inablilty to really see where the other is coming from.

The fact that McWhorter is essentially telling black Americans to cut white Americans some slack, and not expect perfect understanding on all issues seems to get lost somehow.

Dr. Cheese · #16 08-24-2011, 08:00 AM

I do disagree with McWhorter on one issue. I think that a remake of "Imitation of Life" for 2011 could be very interesting. Today, interracial marriage is legal and fairly common; so is the notion of biracial identity. There are many kids of biracial background who clearly identify with their white families in a way that was not possible when segregation was the law of the land. Exploring how such a person racially identifies could make for a cool movie.

stratovani · #17 08-24-2011, 08:07 AM

Better get in here before it's shut down.

The guy makes a lot of good points in this essay. We humans have been on this planet for a million years, and in the vast majority of this time we've lived in social structures called tribes. We have an innate need to be with our own kind, for both survival and comfort. We've lived as a "civilized" society for a relatively short time, maybe a couple of hundred years, and our tribal ways have never really left us. Fear of the "other" is virtually hardwired in our genes. For this reason there will always be an undercurrent of racism, not only in American but in all human societies.

Myself, I've personally experienced the French-English racism (or more correctly, ethnicism) in my native Canada, so deep down inside I've tended to be a bit more sensitive to African-American sensibilities, but I can't really say that I "get it", any more than I "get" Jewish or Italian or Californian or anyone else's sensibilities. which is OK, since they won't "get" my sensibilities either. For example, I could meet Dr. Cheese, treat him with respect, have an intelligent conversation with him, and we still won't "get" each other, in the sense that this essay puts out. But that's all right, I feel that we weren't put on this Earth to "get" each other, simply to treat each other the way we ourselves would want to be treated. To paraphrase Dr. King, not by the color of our skin but by the content of our character.

Hope I havn't rambled on too much here!

Relic · #18 08-24-2011, 08:08 AM

Yeah, I do believe there is a disconnect. It's painfully obvious. And though I cant say that I'm a fan, as I also think he's just a wee bit racist-sounding at times - props to McWhorter for recognizing that and laying it out. That's exactly why race threads for instance seem to follow the exact same path, with the same people saying the same things over and over again....
In as far as some white folks getting mad when a black person discusses race - well, yeah, it's true. Is it not the other way around as well? It's like I said back in another recent thread, a lot of times both sides are arguing from a position of truth, so why bother even arguing? Just listen, respect and accept the fact that there may be more than one "grand truth" in this world when it comes to race.
Yeah yeah, that sounds all naive and such, I know....
What it comes down to for me, is that I can't even begin to fathom the complexities of race issues, so I often don't even bother. I just look at the folks around me and accept them for who they are, good or bad regardless of race, creed or gender. It's a lot easier that way. Plus, as an added bonus, when I accept someone for who they are, and they turn out to be a cool person, I'm even more willing to sit, listen and accept that what they're telling me may differ from what I see as "truth" - it can be an eye-opening experience.

Smokin' Toaster · #19 08-24-2011, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quickie

Well, this thread is on course towards disaster.

Yeah, I've been an active participant in threads that deal with race, but I think I'll sit this one out. It rapidly turns into a "you have the problem, not me - now admit it" type discussion, and I'm pointing the finger at myself with this statement as much as I'm pointing at anyone else.

Race oriented threads here in TalkBass seem to have increased tension rather than have any positive effect.

I'm ready for a "why we DO get it and DO get along more often than not" thread.

But I won't hold my breath.

**jmattbassplaya** · #20 08-24-2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

McWhorter is alot of things, but ignorant is not one of them. It cracks me up sometimes just how mad some people can get when a black person discusses race, no matter what that person says.

The fact that McWhorter's essay upset you so much really proves his point about the disconnect, and the inablilty to really see where the other is coming from.

The fact that McWhorter is essentially telling black Americans to cut white Americans some slack, and not expect perfect understanding on all issues seems to get lost somehow.

It cracks me up that you think this stuff is somehow insightful or even helpful in opening up talks about race. Every time the Root gets sourced in a thread everything begins to break down, and any progress that was being made towards having an insightful and thought-provoking discussion goes out the window.

That's because these articles are incredibly narrow-minded. They only show one side of the story. The fact that this author seems to think most, if not all, white people are unable to relate to being discriminated against (be it due to race, cultural background, religion, etc...) is so ignorant it's not even funny.

The article is upsetting to me because it's opinions and ideas like his that cause the disconnect to begin with. He discusses his opinions as if they are facts to be taken as an absolute truth. What he is really saying is that white people can never understand the basic human feelings of suffering, unbelonging, and resentment towards being who you are - and that's deplorable. These are feelings all people, regardless of race, feel at some time or another.

And maybe it's just me, but the idea of "cutting people slack" on such topics is essentially lowering the value of the person you're talking to. It's as if you don't believe they are smart enough or capable enough to understand simple human emotion. It's as if you have to talk to them like a child.

I really hate it when people begin to take it personally and start discussing race as if it's us vs them - white people vs black people. The adjective before the noun does not matter, but many of the Root articles you post focus so much more on the adjective than the noun that it almost dehumanizes the other side's opinions. We do have differences, but looking at skin color as a determining factor in someone's character or ability to comprehend things just seems racist.

*edit* I should expand on this as Mike's post definitely gave me additional insight and more ideas for my point. Of course not all people will agree on everything or will see eye to eye on a variety of topics and issues, but that doesn't mean the other party can't understand or relate towards the other side's sentiment. What bothers me about this article is that it seems to hint at the idea that it's not that ~~white~~ people just can't relate 100%, but that they can't relate at all to feelings ~~black~~ people have.

Hey, look at that. We're all people in the end