Weightlifters - Opinions on Creatine

[Ray Holt]

Hey guys. I've been working out regularly since the beginning of this year. Some of you may have seen my "Weightloss pics" thread. For most of the beginning of this year I was mainly concerned with losing weight. Lifting was an important part of my whole program, but just to help burn the fat.

So far I've lost about 45 pounds and I'm about as low as I want to go. I'm going to be focusing on gaining muscle now, getting stronger. Like I said I've been lifting very regularly the whole time, so it's nothing really new, just now my focus is switching from losing fat to gaining muscle.

Right now the only supplement I consume is protein powder... I make a shake with milk and Optimum Nutrition's 100% Whey Gold Standard powder. I've been drinking a shake right after my workouts.


The guy I've been going to the gym with since I've been back here in NY has used creatine. He cycles on and off of it... one month on, one month off. He has had GREAT results with it. I know that it affects everyone differently, and some people just don't respond to it.

From a lot of what I've read, it doesn't seem like there is any major risk. I read an article on Men's Health written by a (seemingly) very credible source (Men's Health Q&A Article) and it seems like although some people don't see the results others do, there isn't any major risk. Some people have complained of cramps, stomach aches and dehydration. Every creatine product I've ever seen recommends you drink LOTS of water, so I guess that wouldn't be a problem if you followed their recommendations.


So I'm just curious if any of you have used it, and what your opinions are. I'm really on the fence with this. It's tempting, but I go back and forth because a big part of me just wants to stay completely natural... I have done pretty well so far.

Thanks for your input!

[Armueller2001]

I'd recommend posting up your diet so you can fix any holes in it before adding more supplements, as their purpose is to "supplement" an already good nutritional approach. You should be eating around 1.25-1.5g of protein per pound of lean bodyweight.... at least that amount of carbohydrates, usually more. Eating 5-6 meals per day is sometimes the only feasible approach for consuming enough food to put your body at a positive calorie balance and gain muscle. Do a google search for "BMR calculator" and find out how many calories you need every day to maintain your current weight.

You may want to add complex carbohydrates to your post-workout shake to aid in gylocgen replentishment and start muscle repair right away... a 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein has been shown to be the optimal mix for rebuilding right after your workout.

All creatine really did for me was make me hold water, and increased my weights a little bit. Nothing magical. I prefer Arginine actually to help get and maintain a pump.

[lowendmafia]

There are differing opinions on this subject, so I will say that if you are set on Creatine you should check out Kre-Alkalyn. Essentially it does the same thing in increase of ATP, however it cuts down on water retention. I have used it a few times and, for my money, it is superior to Creatine Ethyl-Esther (which has almost made creatine monohydrate obsolete).

If you really want to pack on muscle and increase strength, I have had amazing success with a supp called Tren-Extreme. This is a pretty serious pro-hormone and may be more than you are willing to experiment with. I used it after I had some serious knee surgeries that caused me to lose a good deal of muscle mass. Be warned, it is pretty much the closest legal supplement you can get to anabolic steroids. But, it really, really works. I don't know that I would ever use it again, but it helped me get back to where I was after my legs had pretty much atrophied.

Also, diet is very important when it comes to building muscle. Usually it is good to take in 1.5 grams of protein for every lb of lean body mass you have.

[Tsal]

Creatine a is natural compound in the muscle, and it's cheap. I don't think there will be any harm done if you give it a try.

The basic Creatine Monohydrate form has been proven to increase exercise performance in several different studies. It acts as an muscle energy source, so it's not like it's a hormone or a similar "pharmaceutical aid". CMH does make you retain some water, though, so your weight will go up a couple of pounds - of course, you lose the extra water after the cycle. CEE and such "new" creatines have not been thoroughly tested yet, and are also more expensive than CMH.

I'd be very sceptic about pro-hormones and such. Most of them are extremely poorly researched and bordering on scams.

[CanadaMan]

Hello, this is my thread. First let's clear the air - Creatine is NOT a steroid. Creatine is NOT going to make you gain 100 pounds in a month, no supplement or AAS will. Creatine will not destroy your body. Creatine will definitely help with size gains and to a lesser extent, strength gains. But since you made this thread as a followup to the weight loss thread, I'm assuming you're looking to bulk up the right way.

First and foremost, you won't gain any weight if you don't bulk. Bodybuilding is all about bulking and cutting, so you need to go through a clean bulk (500 calories above your base intake) but with healthy foods and not whatever you want. You need to eat big to get big.

Second, protein is a necessity. It's not even a supplement anymore, everyone needs it. Also, you need to start a multivitamin to reinforce your body since you're *essentially* beating the hell out of it every day you lift, it takes a toll on your immune system. A simple multi-vitamin will work. Fish oil is also a good idea for the Omega-3.

Creatine, however, isn't necessary. It is a good idea to take it though, since it does no harm and helps your body. To begin you need to start a 5-7 day loading phase of 25-30 grams per day. Then you'll either cycle 5-10 grams a day for a month or two, or keep it constant. Fairly straightforward and no risk what so ever. I'd suggest just regular creatine monohydrate. Regardless of what crap you might read on the label, the only scientific evidence thus far is that straight CM works better than any combo.

Lowendmafia - I'd be careful messing with Prohormones brah. That's not a supp in the slightest, don't advertise it as such. This is completely new territory, just don't want to lead people astray, no offense intended. Superdrol and the like are designer steroids, methylated so your liver can process them and so they don't classify as AAS anymore. OP - If you're under 25, as I am, don't bother dude. You're peaking testosterone and anything you use to replace your regular testosterone levels will do more serious damage then good. However, if you MUST take a Prohormone/Designer Steroid/AAS, DO YOUR RESEARCH! Know what does what, and also don't jump in head first. Start with 1 before stacking.

You should also know that Prohormones and DS's are very taxing on the liver in higher doses, and while they're legal, they're definitely not the first place to turn.

Final note on AAS: You definitely need a post cycle therapy (PCT) coming down from PH/DS/AAS cycles. This will help restore your naturate test levels and keep your gains.

Finally: What is your lifting program like? I'll help you tweak it for what progress you want, post lifts, reps, sets and poundage and I'll be glad to help you out.

[Vic Winters]

Follow the directions for best results. You usually use it in cycles.

Week 1: Loading: 20g/day through multiple doses to increase the percentage of absorption.

Weeks 2-4: Maintenance. 10g/day taken post work out.

Weeks 5-8: Off.

Absorption is aided by mixing with high glucose drinks (grape juice).

[CanadaMan]

To add to that: I load 30g a day. And maintenance should be broken to a half hour before working out and immediately after (with the protein shake if it's mixed right there, otherwise take it separate as creatine degrades in liquid in an hour.) and then a post workout meal to spike insulin levels to help said protein/creatine reach the muscles.

[lowendmafia]

Yo CanadaMan, first and foremost there is no reason the try to blast me. I wasn't recommending any pro-hormones. I was just saying that they are the only thing that actually works (in a muscle building over a short period of time sense). Creatine is ok, as is Arginine and a few others, but there are too many people that think that they can walk into GNC and buy themselves a new body. Since it seems that you are convinced that you have the answer I am sure you will agree with me that 90% of physique is determined by genetics, no?

I am fully aware of the possible negative effects of such products and I mentioned that it is pretty hardcore. I used them to help me get back to where I was after having two catastrophic knee injuries. You try going from 240 to 190 and having your muscles completely atrophy due to inactivity and being on crutches and the horrendous amount of painkillers that I had to take just to sleep at night. Perhaps it was an ego thing, but I was in amazing physical shape before my knees were destroyed and seeing my body deteriorate was a horribly depressing experience. I am a certified personal trainer (although I do not make my living that way) and have "done my research."

[Tsal]

Hmm, I actually found something that suggests the trendy products like CEE and Kre-Alkalyn aren't as good as the basic monohydrate form: http://pogue972.blogspot.com/2007/06...ine-ethyl.html

I also found a couple of studies that suggested that (1) even a post-workout creatine supplement augments muscle growth by (2) increasing the IGF-1 levels in the muscle.

[Tsal]

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

I wasn't recommending any pro-hormones. I was just saying that they are the only thing that actually works (in a muscle building over a short period of time sense). .. I used them to help me get back to where I was after having two catastrophic knee injuries.

Then again, there is such a thing as "muscle memory" - it's easy to make a lot of gains, if you have been in a good shape before. Might it be possible that your results are actually because of this phemomenon and not the prohormones?

The thing with prohormones is that they have not been researched much, and when they have been, there hasn't been any significant increase with muscle mass or strength compared to the placebo groups. There's also evidence that these products are transformed into estrogen as often as into testosterone, so there's a significant potential for negative effects as well.

[CanadaMan]

Originally Posted by lowendmafia

Yo CanadaMan, first and foremost there is no reason the try to blast me. I wasn't recommending any pro-hormones. I was just saying that they are the only thing that actually works (in a muscle building over a short period of time sense). Creatine is ok, as is Arginine and a few others, but there are too many people that think that they can walk into GNC and buy themselves a new body. Since it seems that you are convinced that you have the answer I am sure you will agree with me that 90% of physique is determined by genetics, no?

I am fully aware of the possible negative effects of such products and I mentioned that it is pretty hardcore. I used them to help me get back to where I was after having two catastrophic knee injuries. You try going from 240 to 190 and having your muscles completely atrophy due to inactivity and being on crutches and the horrendous amount of painkillers that I had to take just to sleep at night. Perhaps it was an ego thing, but I was in amazing physical shape before my knees were destroyed and seeing my body deteriorate was a horribly depressing experience. I am a certified personal trainer (although I do not make my living that way) and have "done my research."

Uhh, hey dude, I'm not blasting you. Like I said, I have no quams with you or what you do/take/say/anything. I was more interested in making sure the OP knew that we weren't talking about supps anymore and talking about PH/AAS now.

As far as genetics go, obviously there are perks to having strong genetics. You're NEVER gonna get to be like Jay Cutler, Ronnie Coleman, etc. even if you take the insane amount of drugs they do (60+k a year in drugs alone). And again, you are correct that no one who walks in to GNC is gonna walk out looking like they just took gear, it'll never happen. I'm assuming that people reading this thread know how much work is involved and dedication and since he's already cut that much fat off his frame, I'm also assuming he's dedicated enough to know Creatine is not the end-all, be-all.

With that out of the way, what did you do for PCT? Just curious as there are several routes to take. I'm a Strongman/Powerlifter first and foremost, not a body builder, but eventually I'm gonna hit a plateau and now I'm "doin' ma research" xD

[CanadaMan]

Originally Posted by Tsal

Then again, there is such a thing as "muscle memory" - it's easy to make a lot of gains, if you have been in a good shape before. Might it be possible that your results are actually because of this phemomenon and not the prohormones?

The thing with prohormones is that they have not been researched much, and when they have been, there hasn't been any significant increase with muscle mass or strength compared to the placebo groups. There's also evidence that these products are transformed into estrogen as often as into testosterone, so there's a significant potential for negative effects as well.

Double post, sorry guise.

Hey dude, you're right, muscle memory is also the reason Christian Bale went from 130 to 230 in like 2-3 months for Batman. But anything that messes with hormones is going to do *something* to your body.

Honestly there are varying strengths of PH out there. Jungle Warfare, for example, has a very mild steroid in it where as Superdrol is a more potent, designer steroid. As far as the estrogen goes, anything you see with steroids you can/will see in PH, if only to a lesser degree. Not everyone gets these side effects, but if you're genetically blessed with baldness, don't rule it out. Acne, gyno, etc. All side effects. It's a careful balance as far as how far you want to go.

[Ray Holt]

First of all, thanks to everyone for the responses.

Armueller2001, I know diet is the most important thing. I've been doing the 5-6 meals idea for a while now, except the "Meals" inbetween breakfast and lunch, then lunch and dinner, have been light things like fruits. This is because like I said, I was focused on losing weight. But I've started changing my diet a bit. I've always been eating a LOT of chicken, I'm now usually having 2-3 hard boiled eggs (one whole and 2 just whites) with my bowl of whole grain cheerios in the morning, and I don't have a set lunch but I often have a PB&J, which has 16-18g of protein. I know that sounds silly, but it's cheap and tastes good So I understand I have to eat bigger to get bigger, so maybe you all can make suggestions for things I can start eating in my "between" meals that will help me bulk up.

Canadaman, I know that creatine is not a steroid. I know that it is something that my body makes naturally. That is the only reason I'm considering using it... I have absolutely no interest in steroids, or the "prohormones" you guys are talking about.

I do take a protein supplement like I said, and I'm planning on taking some more to help me get to the "1g protein for every pound of lean body weight". I do have a multivitamin, GNC's Mega Men Sport. I just haven't been taking it in a while... but I will start back. And I also have fish oil pills actually, so I'll get back on them too.

That's how I felt about it Canadaman, I know creatine isn't necessary but I figure since I've done quite a bit of research and all I've seen is that the only major side-affect reported is gaining weight (which is the idea), why not give it a try. And from what I've read, you know how some people say all the weight is water... I've read that a lot of it is water but it is proportional to the amount of muscle you gain.


I've just been able to seriously get back to the gym, since I just moved back to NY and it took me a while to get settled in and be able to get into a gym. So once I've gone a few more times I'll post up what I can lift and how many reps etc. I'm not very strong... and my chest is DEFINITELY my weakest area... it's just genetics though. My dad's been in really good shape for a long time and still has no chest. I'm going to work it as much as I can though.


Thanks again for all the input.

[CanadaMan]

Post em up bud, no one's judging. I just want to help you out, I'm passionate about weightlifting (as I'm sure others are as well). Give it a go, you can't lose anything, why not?

Keep me posted, you can fix the chest xD

[Tsal]

Originally Posted by CanadaMan

Honestly there are varying strengths of PH out there. Jungle Warfare, for example, has a very mild steroid in it where as Superdrol is a more potent, designer steroid. As far as the estrogen goes, anything you see with steroids you can/will see in PH, if only to a lesser degree.

Well, I suppose there might be some effect to prohormones. It's just that you can't be sure if they do anything at all, or if it's just going to grow you a pair of breasts! At least with creatine you have a very good chance of seeing some effect.

Also, if you are paying big bucks for something that might do something to your hormones, why not go for the real deal? I'm sure the stuff isn't that hard to find, and I can't imagine the price difference would be that much, especially considering that the stuff is proven to work. Not that it would be a smart thing to do, of course, but still.

[Ray Holt]

I'm not ashamed at all, just don't have a very accurate idea on numbers since this week is the first time I've been able to hit the gym for real in a while. But here are some rough numbers.

Chest, like I said is really weak. 45lbs on each side is hard for me. With a 45 on each side (90, but do you guys count the bar? Olympic bars weigh 45lbs right?) I can do 10 the first set with it getting hard at the end, then I get tired quickly. It's hard for me to say because at the gym this week the guy spotting me was helping me, and I couldn't tell how much. BY the third set though, another guy wasn't helping and I barely pushed out 3-4 on my own. I understand to gain mass you should shoot for high weight and low reps...so what would you recommend?

Right after the flat bench we did inclined, and I only did a 25lb on each side, because my arms/chest were already tired. Then we did decline, and I did 35lb on each side (decline seems easier to me).

On flys I can do 3 sets of 10 with 25lbs (each hand) pretty easy, 30lbs I might struggle but could probably get 3 sets of 10 out too.


Curls... Monday was the first time I've done weighted curls in a while. For a while now I've just been doing pullups... and I've been doing 5 sets of 5 reps, with 2 minutes rest inbetween. I can do that pretty easy now, to the point where I was going to up it to 6 reps. When we curled at the gym we did "Hammers", where you hold the dumbbell straight up and down... I think that works a different part of your bicep, first set I did 30 pounds and got out 8-9 reps, then I went down to 25lbs because I like to keep my form good and not cheat. When in the gym in Savannah I could curl 30lbs in each hand easy (doing regular curls, palms facing out at the bottom) and could do 35 at lower reps, even 40 at just a couple of reps. Now doing pullups with my palms facing away from me is much harder, with my hands only shoulder width apart I can do about 8 in a row, or 5 sets of 5.

Dips, when I did them Monday the first set I was able to do 10 and struggled the last 2, but then i got tired quick. Second set I was able to get out 7, then 3rd set only 4. Once again, my chest/triceps are the weak area. I can do that move... think it's called a triceps extension, where you lay on a flat bench, hold a weight above your head, then lower it down to the floor behind your head. I can do that with 35lbs relatively easy, it gets tough at the end of the 3rd set but I can do it. So that's one where I could probably definitely go for higher weight and lower reps... that one KILLS my triceps.

Uhm... on the rowing machine (where you have your chest pushed up against a pad) I was doing like 120, I could do 135 but probably couldn't do 3 sets of 10 with good form. The machine I was using was different than the one I was used to.

I also want to start doing squats and deadlifts a lot more. I was doing squats for a while but with really light weight... like 70 lbs of weights and the olympic bar. Never got serious about it.

I can do bent over rows with 50lbs on an EZ-curl bar, 3 sets of 10 pretty easy. Could go heavier.

For shoulders... when extending out to the sides, using good form and not using momentum I can do 3 sets of 10 with 10lbs pretty easy but feel the burn by the end. Doing the raises to the front I can do 15lbs. I can do shrugs with like 140 lbs (70lb dumbbell in each hand) pretty easy.



I dunno, there's some rough numbers for now. Like I said I'll be able to tell you better after I've gone some more. Thanks a lot for the help man, I'm interested to see what you have to say.

[spade2you]

I've heard mixed things. A prof of mine did studies using animal stomach tissues and radio labeled creatine. Absorption was variable and many brands varied in purity, as they're not regulated like prescription drugs. Most scientific studies haven't shown much benefit, many have demonstrated kidney damage.

[wld3]

Just a quick, slightly OT, observation/comment: Buying anything at GNC is quite foolish IMO. They are drastically overpriced. (Same is true for Vitamin World too.)

Check local nutrition shops and online sellers like Bodybuilding.com, DPS Nutrition, and BulkNutrition.

[Ray Holt]

I was looking at Optimum Nutrition's Creatine Powder, because it uses "Creapure" which is basically the most pure creatine you can get. I've seen it recommended a few places.

[buzzbass]

Originally Posted by Ray Holt

I was looking at Optimum Nutrition's Creatine Powder, because it uses "Creapure" which is basically the most pure creatine you can get. I've seen it recommended a few places.

their stuff is good quality, you should see good results.