What happened to the celtic revival.

[punkjazzben]

My mum loves Celtic Thunder and all those Celtic singer songwriter lasses. And she posts things in Welsh on Facebook.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Wasn't even aware there had been a 'revival'.

Though if there is such a thing, is it actually on the decline? Isn't "Tartan Day" or whatnot in the US growing larger and larger each year?

Didn't this:



Just win an oscar?


I dunno, never saw what all the fuss was about. But shouldn't complain I guess, lots of tourist money coming into the country

[sloasdaylight]

Well, this has been a terribly fascinating read.

[punkjazzben]

Yep, and Scotland has this thing called Highland Homecomings now. It's a year long cultural and tourism event that brings in big bucks. With a diaspora of over 40 million, that's not surprising, and nor is the growth of Tartan Day.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Hey, what do you expect, it's kinda crappy weather outside, we don't have much else to do other than stay indoors and keep each other warm.

Not a very big piece of land so of course we need to kick people out regularly.

[SoonerMatt]

If you think the Celtic revival is dead then you need to head to St. Louis. I swear 90% of the population there claims Irish heritage.

[jaywa]

ODs on Michael Flatley and the Corrs, I'm thinking.

That being said, I think the traditional and neo-Celtic / Irish music is some of the coolest stuff out there.

It's also very much alive and well in the neo-bluegrass and Americana movements which trace back to Appalachian folk music which itself has a very strong connection to Irish/Scottish traditions being that many of the settlers in that region were of that descent.

[oniman7]

Ethnically, I am 60% Irish, 20 English and 20 cherokee. Culturally I was raised in Florida and I'm just a suburban kid with a redneck family. I wear some Celtic symbols and have a deep respect for Ireland as the pagan/druidic area it used to be and the cultural influence to this day. Same with cherokee. Did that actually answer anything?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by MuinXing

I donno if it's just me but during the mid nineties it seemed like there was this huge thing with being celtic. Whether in europe or in the new world.

Yet just 20 years later it's just disappeared it seems.

it's alive and well here. Got a big three day Celtic Festival coming up in a few weeks actually.

http://www.romanzastaugustine.org/celtic/

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by Musiclogic

I find too many times, any type of pride in a non anglo culture is seen as advancing the course of humanity, yet when someone identifies with an Anglo culture, they are immediately viewed as being some type of supremicist.

Perhaps because...

1. Anglo-saxon have been a dominant ethnicity for much of Western history. Being proud of being an elite is different than being proud when you're the oppressed. People try to turn these discussions into "reversed racism" things, but they always fail to take that into account.

2. A lot of celtic, Scandinavian, and neo-pagan pride is associated with white supremacy. A casual cyber-stroll through the Stormfront forums should reveal that.

P.s. Mummers' Dance is a good jam.

[Bloodhammer]

Originally Posted by punkjazzben

Both Australia and North America (particularly Canada... especially Toronto) consider themselves multicultural societies, not rooted in any particular ethnic tradition. To demonstrate what I mean by a reaction, in the colour and light of the late-80s/early-90s popular multicultural movement (think world music fusion bands, international food days at schools, LOTE classes, that kind of thing) emerged a kind of cry of 'me too!' from Anglo-Australia - Celtic and Caledonian societies flourished, specialist newspapers were set up, and eventually 'Irish', 'Scottish', and 'Welsh' were officially recognised as ethnic groups, thus allowing them to apply to the government for cultural grants and the like. These kinds of cultural organisations had always been around, but they really did flourish in the last two decades of the twentieth century, and are still going strong. There's nothing wrong with the way in which the Celtic revival occurred, or at least how I perceive it did.

So, in the wake of Australian multiculturalism came a re-commitment by many white Australians to Anglo-Celtic ethnic and cultural identity. Now, I have no problem with people identifying themselves with this or that ethnicity, religion, political persuasion, whatever. It's something that humans seem to do naturally - seek belonging and rootedness in an identity and tradition. Most people just wear kilts and get into drinking Scotch and playing golf; it's mostly harmless.

However, some groups in the 90s tried to assert 'Anglo-Celticism' to the exclusion of the plurality of ethnicities present in Australia. It was a worrying echo to of the ethnic supremacism of White Australia. We had Pauline Hanson's explicitly racist One Nation party trying to curtail Asian immigration. Our own Prime Minister, John Howard, tried to change the school books (literally) to emphasise Australia's British heritage; he's still on a mission against the inclusion of Asian and world history in the school curriculum.

Now we have extreme Islamaphobia and a new generation of assertive 'Anglo-Aussies' driving around with "**** off, we're full" stickers on their bumper bars. It's shameful and we have a dark enough history of racism without this kind of thing.

So that's the slippery slope. For most, 'cultural ethnicity' is just harmless fun or tradition and perhaps a good way to gain a sense of self and identity. But for some, the assertion of ethnic identity is related to their own racism or xenophobia - perhaps as a kind of way of orientating themselves against the ever-present 'Other'.

Again, most people are not like this (I'd like to think!). I have fun with my heritage (English mum, Scottish dad) and so do most.

Now, as for the original post, I would speculate that the Celtic thing might have dropped out of mainstream culture as a consequence of generational change - my generation certainly grew up with the idea of Australian identity being rooted in civic values rather than ethnic heritage, so maybe the 'ethnicity' thing is not a big deal for most younger Anglo-Australians. The historical association of Anglo-Australia with White Australia is also very uncomfortable for many, which might - paradoxically - also go towards explaining why some people would prefer to call themselves Irish (or anything else) instead of Australian.

It is, however, going strong among some segments, and there does seem to be a skew towards the older age group when it comes to the appeal of all things Celtic or Caledonian. Except for Flogging Molly - everyone loves Flogging Molly.

Great post, but for the love of your own credibility, please stop using the "slippery slope" argument. It's a known logical fallacy and doesn't really apply to what you're saying. Xenophobia isn't something that runs itself faster and faster down a figurative hill once perched at the edge, it's purposefully stoked by demagogues who use it to gain political power. Like you said, wearing kilts and getting into golf is harmless and won't necassarily lead to white supremacy. What would cause that to happen is if someone was to convince you that there are people coming to take away your kilts and golf clubs and that they have to be stopped and all Celts must band together to do so. Vitriolic propaganda and whatnot. Otherwise, great post.

Anyway, I'm almost completely English-descended, so if I was a mod, I'd close the hell out of this thread just to oppress you gingers!

j/k

I'm actually a quarter Irish, but I've never heard of a Celtic revival. Probably just not my thing. I dunno. I'm American and that's all I'll ever be to most of the world, so that's my cultural identity.

[punkjazzben]

Originally Posted by Bloodhammer

Great post, but for the love of your own credibility, please stop using the "slippery slope" argument.

I think it's entirely appropriate that you called me out on this. I actually started a thread a while ago in Off-Topic about rampant logical fallacies on TB :/

'Slippery slope' is not the correct term for what it is I'm speaking of. My intention wasn't to make it seem like wearing a kilt leads to white supremacism. Rather, you might say there is a continuum, and at one end you have completely benign, symbolic ethnic and cultural activity (harmless fun) and at the other end you have antagonistic ethnic supremacism (Stormfront).

In either case, community formation along the lines of ethnicity requires, in my mind, some implicit or explicit acceptance that ethnicity is important somehow - it is either inherently significant as a determinant factor in the way a person is, or simply being a certain ethnicity necessitates other characteristics or traits in a person that are common across that ethnic group. The degree to which this belief is evident is obviously related to the 'continuum' I described above - white supremacists obviously believe Anglos are superior for their ethnicity; people in a Tartan Day parade might just think it's kinda neat that you've all got something in common. In both cases, ethnicity matters, but to varying degrees.

In my experience, an individual's ethnicity is only determinant insofar as societies believe that it is, and the drawing of divisions along ethnic lines due to this belief may have an impact on the individual.

[bolophonic]

My entire family is 100% Irish. I have a great affinity for the land and the history of the culture. Anyone who associates Irish pride with white supremacy is clearly not Irish. It is the pride of the underdog. I feel it when I look at my son and contemplate the fact that he is descended from a long line of fighters, warriors and survivors.

[UncleFluffy]

Originally Posted by bolophonic

Anyone who associates Irish pride with white supremacy is clearly not Irish. It is the pride of the underdog.

There's a Stiff Little Fingers song about that, somewhere...

"Anglo" and "Celtic" are very, very different heritages, despite them being confused by external observers.

[punkjazzben]

Originally Posted by UncleFluffy

There's a Stiff Little Fingers song about that, somewhere...

"Anglo" and "Celtic" are very, very different heritages, despite them being confused by external observers.

Good point, and although someone may actually be Anglo-Celtic in the sense that they are of both Anglo and Celtic ancestry, they may consciously pick one side and run with it. Same for anyone with mixed ancestry, which is a lot of people in the English-speaking world. I find that interesting.

There's also the issue of who is Celtic and who is Anglo(-Saxon). For example, Scottish cultural activity in the diaspora is often derived from Highland and Celtic 'traditions' (even made-up traditions) even though the majority of the Scottish population has, historically, emigrated from the Lowlands. What's interesting about this is that, throughout the nineteenth century, Lowland Scots considered themselves more English than the English - of purer Anglo-Saxon blood, if you will - and differentiated themselves from 'Celtic' Highlanders. But nowadays, the Highland 'thing' seems to have taken over, in the diaspora at least.

Further complicating this are Ulster Scots in Northern Ireland, and then you can also add a bit of religion into the mix and there's Anglo-Catholics, Irish Presbyterians, and on and on.

[jp58]

I'm around 1/3 Welsh, 1/3 Irish, with the rest being Scottish and Native American. Our family history can be traced from Nashville back to Pennsylvania, and back overseas. Dad's side is almost exclusively Welsh with the exception being my grandmother who was Irish. Mom's side is a little more complicated. Her maiden name was Scottish, she has some Irish speckled in, and I've got a pair of Native American relatives.

[MuinXing]

Originally Posted by punkjazzben

I think it's entirely appropriate that you called me out on this. I actually started a thread a while ago in Off-Topic about rampant logical fallacies on TB :/

'Slippery slope' is not the correct term for what it is I'm speaking of. My intention wasn't to make it seem like wearing a kilt leads to white supremacism. Rather, you might say there is a continuum, and at one end you have completely benign, symbolic ethnic and cultural activity (harmless fun) and at the other end you have antagonistic ethnic supremacism (Stormfront).

In either case, community formation along the lines of ethnicity requires, in my mind, some implicit or explicit acceptance that ethnicity is important somehow

Just as you consider it dangerous to place value in ethnicity, it's equally anticulture to devalue it.


Ethnicity is fine as long as a group isn't defined by rigid definitions.

It's only a problem once you have a rigid definition of what it means to not be white/mainstream/wasp etc etc. It's the rigid definition end of the continuum that I believe causes the bulk of the problem.

This splits society in a way that is gaurentee'd to cause division.

This brings why the importance of why a celtic revival is needed.

By denying the importance of having a irish grandfather, or say a forgotten ancestries is irrelevant, you create rigid definitions of ethnicity.

this is where the slippery slope truly starts.

If I'm just white/mainstream, and embracing my hidden ancestry is seen as bad, it'll put people who cannot forget their ancestries (racial minorities, or resent migrants) at a disadvantage. Because we'll have a rigid definition of ethnicity that will divide society.

And lets be clear this is almost exactly what is happening in the states.

[PocketGroove82]

Scots-Irish Americans: Inventors of Bluegrass and Moonshine Whiskey. What more needs be said?

[jp58]

I find value in it, but I don't think I define myself by it. When anyone asks why I have a lot of red in my beard, I gladly tell them (or joke) that it's my Irish showing.

[LiquidMidnight]

Originally Posted by MuinXing

If I'm just white/mainstream, and embracing my hidden ancestry is seen as bad, it'll put people who cannot forget their ancestries (racial minorities, or resent migrants) at a disadvantage. Because we'll have a rigid definition of ethnicity that will divide society.

Huh?