What's Up?

Dr. Cheese · #1 01-04-2008, 11:59 PM

Now that Roger Clemens has been called before Congress, and it appears that his version of the truth sounds a whole lot like another unnamed superstar, why don't I see any discussion here at TB?

Here is an essay by William Rhoden:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/sp...tml?ref=sports

Atoz · #2 01-05-2008, 01:07 AM

Cheese... You're one of the TBers whom I really respect because your comments are generally thoughtful and insightful. I really hope you're not fishing for a race thread here.

Maybe no one is discussing Clemens because baseball's been over for over two months, and it's smack in the middle of NFL playoff season and the NCAA FB bowls?

Maybe because Clemens, while not the most media-friendly guy around, hasn't actually been a major league douchebag to everyone he's ever been around a la Barry Bonds; so people aren't actually rooting for him to fail?

Maybe since there hasn't been obvious signs of heavy long-term steroid use (i.e didn't get huge, performance didn't mysteriously skyrocket overnight), people are sympathetic?

I don't know... The reason I haven't brought it up is because of the first reason I mentioned (football).

My $0.02.

Dr. Cheese · #3 01-05-2008, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atoz

Cheese... You're one of the TBers whom I really respect because your comments are generally thoughtful and insightful. I really hope you're not fishing for a race thread here.

Maybe no one is discussing Clemens because baseball's been over for over two months, and it's smack in the middle of NFL playoff season and the NCAA FB bowls?

Maybe because Clemens, while not the most media-friendly guy around, hasn't actually been a major league douchebag to everyone he's ever been around a la Barry Bonds; so people aren't actually rooting for him to fail?

Maybe since there hasn't been obvious signs of heavy long-term steroid use (i.e didn't get huge, performance didn't mysteriously skyrocket overnight), people are sympathetic?

I don't know... The reason I haven't brought it up is because of the first reason I mentioned (football).

My $0.02.

Frankly, Clemens has been getting lots of media coverage, and I would think that TB'ers would have talked about him. Secondly, although Clemens has always been bigger than Bonds, his career had proportionally a much bigger slump, and boost than Bonds did. Just check out Bonds numbers the three years before he surged, and check out Clemens numbers for the three years before he surged. Clemens was much more clearly in decline, that was why the Redsox let him go. If folks had looked at him as hard as they did Bonds, they would have been questioning him loudly years ago.

As for race, I can't speak for anyone's mind. I just see a very similar situation that has been reacted to very differently.

peaveyuser · #4 01-05-2008, 01:26 AM

aww damnit Roger Clemens I liked him, damn I'll be disappointed if he turned out he injected. He was a huge factor in the World Series winning Blue Jays.

Although I don't watch baseball anymore I used to be quite the fan when younger, Clemens was one of my favorite pitchers.

Atoz · #5 01-05-2008, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Frankly, Clemens has been getting lots of media coverage, and I would think that TB'ers would have talked about him. Secondly, although Clemens has always been bigger than Bonds, his career had proportionally a much bigger slump, and boost than Bonds did. Just check out Bonds numbers the three years before he surged, and check out Clemens numbers for the three years before he surged. Clemens was much more clearly in decline, that was why the Redsox let him go. If folks had looked at him as hard as they did Bonds, they would have been questioning him loudly years ago.

As for race, I can't speak for anyone's mind. I just see a very similar situation that has been reacted to very differently.

Again, I don't know why no one has been talking about Clemens here... I'm more of a football/basketball guy anyway. I hadn't really been paying attention to Clemens during the years you mentioned in the first place, so I'm probably not the one to be jumping in.

I hope the "race thread" comment I made before wasn't taken as a personal attack. I meant what I said about respecting your views here on TB. I have simply grown weary of how some threads have turned in that direction over the last few months. No offense intended.... I was probably a bit aggressive.

Dr. Cheese · #6 01-05-2008, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atoz

Maybe because Clemens, while not the most media-friendly guy around, hasn't actually been a major league douchebag to everyone he's ever been around a la Barry Bonds; so people aren't actually rooting for him to fail?

This is part of my point. So many people who claim moral outrage over Bonds simply don't like him, and want to see him go down any way possible. Now that one of their guys is accused, don't say a word.

That attitude is why I tend to be skeptical of posters who are so upset over some athletes or entertainers.

Atoz · #7 01-05-2008, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

This is part of my point. So many people who claim moral outrage over Bonds simply don't like him, and want to see him go down any way possible. Now that one of their guys is accused, don't say a word.

That attitude is why I tend to be skeptical of posters who are so upset over some athletes or entertainers.

Oh, I agree 100%... People have wanted Bonds to fail for years now. You won't get any argument from me over that. I'm guilty of that myself, primarily due to the way he has treated those around him. Did I jump the gun, assuming you were focusing on a primarily racial explanation for the animosity toward Bonds? I apologize if I did.

Hawaii Islander · #8 01-05-2008, 01:39 AM

My personal opinion is that none of the baseball players should have been brought before the inquisition on steriods, HGH, etc. That includes Barry Bonds (btw: I'm a die hard Red Sox fan who cares nothing about the San Francisco Giants or any other NL team). MLB should have done their investigation into the prevalence of steroid use and come up with reasonable rules and a date to start enforcing the rules. Any player breaking the rules after that date is subject to the agreed upon punishment. Skip the witch hunt altogether.

Dr. Cheese · #9 01-05-2008, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atoz

I hope the "race thread" comment I made before wasn't taken as a personal attack. I meant what I said about respecting your views here on TB. I have simply grown weary of how some threads have turned in that direction over the last few months. No offense intended.... I was probably a bit aggressive.

Believe it or not, I am not obsessed with race, and the example of Obama demonstrates just how successful a Black person can be in America. That said, race disparities do pop up from time to time, and I am not afraid of pointing them out.

Brad Barker · #10 01-05-2008, 01:42 AM

espn has been covering clemens quite a bit, and if the evidence is so obvious that even someone like myself who doesn't even care about baseball knows that he used performance enhancing drugs, then i want him to get the barry bonds treatment, too. except he's been slightly more likeable, afaik. bonds was really a jerk about everything from what i saw.

maybe people in general have wised up and realized that baseball is boring, even with steroids?

hell, the only "performance enhancer" that would make the sport interesting would be LSD.

Dr. Cheese · #11 01-05-2008, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Barker

espn has been covering clemens quite a bit, and if the evidence is so obvious that even someone like myself who doesn't even care about baseball knows that he used performance enhancing drugs, then i want him to get the barry bonds treatment, too. except he's been slightly more likeable, afaik. bonds was really a jerk about everything from what i saw.

maybe people in general have wised up and realized that baseball is boring, even with steroids?

hell, the only "performance enhancer" that would make the sport interesting would be LSD.

My problem is that folks were out to get Bonds long before the evidence was anywhere near the sworn statements against Clemens. That is why the silence about Clemens is so deafening.

Atoz · #12 01-05-2008, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Barker

hell, the only "performance enhancer" that would make the sport interesting would be LSD.

IIRC, Dock Ellis pitched a no-hitter for the Pirates back in the 70s while tripping on acid.

Brad Barker · #13 01-05-2008, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atoz

IIRC, Dock Ellis pitched a no-hitter for the Pirates back in the 70s while tripping on acid.

rofl.

snopes says it's true! http://www.snopes.com/sports/baseball/ellis.asp

GregC · #14 01-05-2008, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Now that Roger Clemens has been called before Congress, and it appears that his version of the truth sounds a whole lot like another unnamed superstar, why don't I see any discussion here at TB?

Here is an essay by William Rhoden:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/sp...tml?ref=sports

I haven't been frequenting OT for very long, Dr. Cheese, but during that time, I didn't see any threads about Bonds in here until prosecution began a couple months ago. Obviously, Clemens isn't there yet.

Media coverage is a different story, though.

BartmanPDX · #15 01-05-2008, 11:04 AM

I haven't been spending much time here lately.

Also, I could care less about baseball. I'll go to a game and drink with a group of friends or something, but I never watch one on TV -- it just bores the heck out of me.

But yeah, it seems like Clemens has gotten more of a pass, though I suspect that's in part because Barry was approaching the record right as everything was breaking. If Clemens were actively approaching a major record during the season when the evidence of his cheating came to light, I imagine he would be getting a major roasting.

Flabby1 · #16 01-05-2008, 11:12 AM

they're both cheaters, neither will admit it.
roids have been around since at least the early 80's i'm sure they're are at least hundreds if not thousands of major leaguers who have cheated.
baseball is no better than wrestling, football, the olympics or cycling
cheaters cheaters cheaters

makes me want to watch that funny tv show called cheaters.

markjazzbassist · #17 01-05-2008, 11:23 AM

i think less people are talking about Clemens because the whole Bonds thing already happened. If Clemens had been first, the sharks would have eaten him up and when it came time to Bonds, it would be the same thing Clemens is getting now.

It was all timing, who got caught first, and how the media reacted?

Oh yeah and that whole Barry Bonds breaking Hank Aaron's record attracted a lot of attention to him as well which in turn sparked Roids debates.

does this sound reasonable?

Dr. Cheese · #18 01-06-2008, 07:46 PM

Anybody see Clemens on 60 Minutes? I think Mike Wallace did a decent job of interviewing Clemens, although I have seen him go much harder on people in the past. The only that struck me was just how much Clemens sounded like every other star accused of PED use. The pain killer and B12 injections sound about as convincing as the old flax seed oil story or "I only took human growth hormone to rehab and help the team."

SuperDuck · #19 01-06-2008, 07:49 PM

I saw the 60 Minutes interview. Clemens was emphatic enough to convince me, but I'm still not sure what the trainer would gain by fabricating his testimonies.

Dr. Cheese · #20 01-06-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperDuck

I saw the 60 Minutes interview. Clemens was emphatic enough to convince me, but I'm still not sure what the trainer would gain by fabricating his testimonies.

For what it's worth, nobody was more than emphatic than Raphael Palmiero or Bill Clinton, and it didn't make them honest.