Why I'm glad I don't live in France

[Smokin' Toaster]

Galliano gets 6,000 euro fine for anti-Semitic outburst | Entertainment | Reuters

What this guy did was really stupid.

His anti-Semitic rant was reprehensible, and I condemn it.

But what is really scary is he got dragged into court and fined over it.

The first amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America assures each US citizen the right to say whatever we want to, even if it is racist, hateful, stupid, moronic, or distasteful. It also assures me of the right to condemn it and point out how reprehensible it is. I'd rather people not say such things, but I'd never support making the utterance of words a crime. Look at those in history who have done so: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Kim Jong-Il... the list closely follows the most notorious and totalitarian regimes in history; and now France has joined this list?

I'll choose freedom, and deal with the rantings of the hateful rather than abridge anyone's freedom in an effort to quiet distasteful speech.

[Relic]

Europe has a very VERY different take on WW2 than we do. While I would be vehemently against something like that here, having lived in Europe for a while I fully support this. It's hard to see why unless you've been there.

[Rickengeezer]

Well, he paid less than this guy:

French Man Forced to Pay Ex-Wife a Settlement for Lack of Sex - TIME NewsFeed

[Smokin' Toaster]

I go to Nurnberg Germany every year for a trade show and do some traveling before and after the show, so I'm familiar with Europe. I'm also a student of history and WWII in particular.

I'll still take that position that horrific events in history are not a good reason to infringe on the freedom of speech, regardless of location... US, Europe, Asia, Africa... anywhere. Restricting anti-Semitic speech today could easilly lead to restricting any speech counter to other, less well-meaning idologies tomorrow. The only safe path is freedom of speech.

Call me an idealist.

[Happynoj]

What exactly did he say? I'm not sure what the law is in France, but I'm pretty sure that there are some places in Europe where Holocaust Denial is a crime.

EDIT:

From Wikipedia:

"France prohibits by its penal code and by its press laws public and private communication which is defamatory or insulting, or which incites discrimination, hatred, or violence against a person or a group of persons on account of place of origin, ethnicity or lack thereof, nationality, race, specific religion, sex, sexual orientation, or handicap. The law prohibits declarations that justify or deny crimes against humanity, for example, the Holocaust."

[Longhair]

I was watching the movie Gran Torino the other day and there was a part where Clint Eastwood is teaching the kid how men talk. A lot of people may find it offensive because of the derogatory language used but the reality of it was that everybody talked that way one time. There were no lawsuits because someone's feeling got hurt. Fights were settled with fists, not drive by shootings.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Pity it isn't more.

I remember hearing he lost his job too, hope he doesn't get taken on by anyone else for this, what a scumbag.

Don't go comparing France to various facist dictatorships, you have to remember that the US is one of the few places where you have a freedom of speech in the manner you do.

Do you get away with making verbal threats of violence in the US? (interest)

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

I go to Nurnberg Germany every year for a trade show and do some traveling before and after the show, so I'm familiar with Europe. I'm also a student of history and WWII in particular.

Which still isn't the same as growing up and living in Europe.

[Relic]

Originally Posted by Longhair

I was watching the movie Gran Torino the other day and there was a part where Clint Eastwood is teaching the kid how men talk. A lot of people may find it offensive because of the derogatory language used but the reality of it was that everybody talked that way one time. There were no lawsuits because someone's feeling got hurt. Fights were settled with fists, not drive by shootings.

Yeah, true. But Gran Torino really didn't revolve around the murder of 6 million people... Not trying to be overly dramatic but that's the reality of it

[Smokin' Toaster]

Here's some of his ramblings, although I don't think is a full, direct quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/fa...pagewanted=all

Stupidity, to be sure, but prosecute him for it? I don't think so.

I also have a problem with denying the Holocost being a crime. It's stupid, it flies in the face of recorded history, but IMHO, it's not a crime. People should be free to be as stupid or as brilliant as they desire.

[Happynoj]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

Here's some of his ramblings, although I don't think is a full, direct quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/fa...pagewanted=all

Stupidity, to be sure, but prosecute him for it? I don't think so.

I also have a problem with denying the Holocost being a crime. It's stupid, it flies in the face of recorded history, but IMHO, it's not a crime. People should be free to be as stupid or as brilliant as they desire.

A lot of countries, especially in Europe, but also Canada, have laws against hate speech. It seems like a pretty good idea to me. Why should we have to tolerate that kind of thing? We don't put up with physical assaults, so why should we have to put up with verbal ones?

[Smokin' Toaster]

Originally Posted by Happynoj

A lot of countries, especially in Europe, but also Canada, have laws against hate speech. It seems like a pretty good idea to me. Why should we have to tolerate that kind of thing? We don't put up with physical assaults, so why should we have to put up with verbal ones?

The answer to this is simple: who gets to determine what hate speech is? Hate speech laws for hate speech against a race or ethnic group can easily morph into "hate speech" laws for speech against a political party or regime. Go to Iran and speak out against the government or against Islam and see if they don't charge you with somethng resembling hate speech.

Freedom means you have to tolerate, or at least accept the existence of some distasteful stuff. It's still a heck of a lot better than anyone dictating to you what is distasteful and what is not. Having hate speech laws on the books makes laws prohibiting or restricting something you believe in or hold dear one step closer to reality.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by Happynoj

A lot of countries, especially in Europe, but also Canada, have laws against hate speech. It seems like a pretty good idea to me. Why should we have to tolerate that kind of thing? We don't put up with physical assaults, so why should we have to put up with verbal ones?

+1

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

The answer to this is simple: who gets to determine what hate speech is? Hate speech laws for hate speech against a race or ethnic group can easily morph into "hate speech" laws for speech against a political party or regime. Go to Iran and speak out against the government or against Islam and see if they don't charge you with somethng resembling hate speech.

Freedom means you have to tolerate some distasteful stuff. It's still a heck of a lot better than anyone dictating to you what is distasteful and what is not. having hate speech laws on the books makes laws prohibiting or restricting something you believe in or hold dear one step closer to reality.

As someone from Europe, who is very recently back from the US. I wouldn't say you are as free as you seem to think!

But different strokes for different folks, it's what makes the world go around!

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Happynoj

A lot of countries, especially in Europe, but also Canada, have laws against hate speech. It seems like a pretty good idea to me. Why should we have to tolerate that kind of thing? We don't put up with physical assaults, so why should we have to put up with verbal ones?

I'll have to think about this some before I can really figure out where I sit on this topic, but as a spring-to-mind counter-point can you actually define hate speech? What makes something more hateful than another? What if I say, "I really hate Bill because he's an *******." Is that derogatory? Sure. Hateful? Well, I said hate so I guess so. Is it unreasonable and should be punishable by law? I highly doubt so.

Freedom of speech (including hate speech) is a beautiful thing because it lets the 'reasonable and well-to-do' people of America weed out the ignorant, racist, and idiotic people more easily. It's easier to spot an idiot who speaks his mind publicly than one who keeps his mouth shut because he has to lest he get penalized by the law.

[duff beer]

Originally Posted by Smokin' Toaster

The answer to this is simple: who gets to determine what hate speech is? Hate speech laws for hate speech against a race or ethnic group can easily morph into "hate speech" laws for speech against a political party or regime. Go to Iran and speak out against the government or against Islam and see if they don't charge you with somethng resembling hate speech.

Freedom means you have to tolerate, or at least accept the existence of some distasteful stuff. It's still a heck of a lot better than anyone dictating to you what is distasteful and what is not. Having hate speech laws on the books makes laws prohibiting or restricting something you believe in or hold dear one step closer to reality.

No one is saying you can't speak out against the government (or any group for that matter), but if you think you can publicly make racist comments or threaten someone without suffering the ramifications (some of them legal in nature), then you simply don't understand what free speech really means.

[macaroni tony]

I'll just chime in and say: It's hard for me to say that "restricting this" will inevitably lead into "restricting that," as one who is not a part of European culture.

In the country I live in, IMO people do tend to get a tad carried away with the idea of "Get off my back big brother! I can do what I want!" But hey, that's how this country was founded. So I can see why that would be the case here.

Though I am a history geek, I am not familiar enough with European culture to have an opinion on whether or not this is outside of the norm for them. But as a person, I don't see any problem with the fine.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I'll have to think about this some before I can really figure out where I sit on this topic, but as a spring-to-mind counter-point can you actually define hate speech? What makes something more hateful than another? What if I say, "I really hate Bill because he's an *******." Is that derogatory? Sure. Hateful? Well, I said hate so I guess so. Is it unreasonable and should be punishable by law? I highly doubt so.

Freedom of speech (including hate speech) is a beautiful thing because it lets the 'reasonable and well-to-do' people of America weed out the ignorant, racist, and idiotic people more easily. It's easier to spot an idiot who speaks his mind publicly than one who keeps his mouth shut because he has to lest he get penalized by the law.

Oh, don't worry, those idiots don't keep thier mouths shut because of hate speech laws.

I still stand by free speech, not being as free as many seem to think it is. From simple things like email monitoring all the way up to Guantanamo Bay, the US isn't as squeeky clean as the ideals it was founded upon.

(I still whole heartedly admit that things are FAR from ideal here too, but you will find most Europeans are pretty supportive of hate speech laws.)

Heck, recently there has been major step in's, legally, because of bigotry at football (soccer) matches in Scotland. Huge amount of violence pent up there, where mob mentality takes control and things can go from hateful speech (chants etc) to violence quite quickly.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by macaroni tony

In the country I live in, IMO people do tend to get a tad carried away with the idea of "Get off my back big brother! I can do what I want!" But hey, that's how this country was founded. So I can see why that would be the case here.

I find this ironic giving the sub-heading to your user name

[macaroni tony]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I find this ironic giving the sub-heading to your user name

HAHA!

Guess it is, isn't it? Well laughing at my own people is one of my favorite things to do...have you visited the "What do you sound like" thread?

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by i_got_a_mohawk

Oh, don't worry, those idiots don't keep thier mouths shut because of hate speech laws.

I still stand by free speech, not being as free as many seem to think it is. From simple things like email monitoring all the way up to Guantanamo Bay, the US isn't as squeeky clean as the ideals it was founded upon.

(I still whole heartedly admit that things are FAR from ideal here too, but you will find most Europeans are pretty supportive of hate speech laws.)

Heck, recently there has been major step in's, legally, because of bigotry at football (soccer) matches in Scotland. Huge amount of violence pent up there, where mob mentality takes control and things can go from hateful speech (chants etc) to violence quite quickly.

Some of those 'restrictions' I don't mind, but, IMHO, having a similar hate speech law in the US would be taken to such a scary extreme that it would limit almost any kind of speech because of how 'sue happy' our nation has become.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by macaroni tony

HAHA!

Guess it is, isn't it? Well laughing at my own people is one of my favorite things to do...have you visited the "What do you sound like" thread?

Not yet, but I'll be sure to give it a look