Would you/do you submit to drug tests at work?

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

As a citizen I have some say in how much a company pays its lowest ranking employees. Why shouldn't the highest ranking employee be determined as well?

You want a "say" in high ranking employees pay ?

Buy stock in the company, and vote your shares at stockholder meetings like the rest of us.

Can't afford stocks, too bad.

[BawanaRik]

I can not believe any cop would try to destroy someones life with a 8.95 test kit. Please.

If they're too cheap to hire a real chemist that defines Reasonable Doubt. If any of you get jury duty think about just how good a $8.95 drug test is going to be.

This has just destroyed any slight faith I ever had in the Breathalyzer test. If they're using tests like this there's universal Reasonable Doubt.

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Okay, they're affordable. Great. So are they accurate? As accurate as clinical piss tests? You know, the ones the ACLU says are not accurate.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

I can not believe any cop would try to destroy someones life with a 8.95 test kit. Please.

If they're too cheap to hire a real chemist that defines Reasonable Doubt. If any of you get jury duty think about just how good a $8.95 drug test is going to be.

This has just destroyed any slight faith I ever had in the Breathalyzer test. If they're using tests like this there's universal Reasonable Doubt.

I don't know what state they accept these as admissible in, but I can tell you around here that a charge based on a test like that would be destroyed in court by any 2nd year law student.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Lowactnsatsfctn

Or a bunch of industries leaving.
Sounds more like Jealousy to me. Other than that, I'm not sue why you Don't like it. That could be you at the top if you so desired. Let Caesar have what is his, and go build your own Empire.

Recognizing an imbalance doesn't mean that something should just be written off as "jealousy."

"Those slaves are just jealous of the plantation owner, pay them no mind!"

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

Are you forgetting that jobs don't exist without a need for workers? Who created that need, BTW?

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here...

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

I don't think there's any reason for a job to be demeaning, but somebody has to clean toilets, dig ditches and work jobs that suck.

I agree. We all do some fairly demeaning things in our respective positions, and those are the demands of the job -- i.e. a medical job will require you to have to work around blood and guts, which could be considered fairly demeaning depending on the context.

It doesn't impact their privacy particularly though to do so, which is where this discussion is supposed to be focused.

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

First of all you ( politicians really, but whatever) SHOULD NOT have a say in what someone is paid on the bottom end. If someone doesn't want to work for what I pay, they are free to look elsewhere.

While I'm sure you're one of the finer minds in economics and political science, the majority seem to disagree with you.

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Second of all, the argument used to support minimum wage is that it keeps employers from being able to keep wages low "Collectively". Which is a a ridiculous argument, nevertheless, your argument for capping out wages has no logical reason. It is motivated by greed and lust after something someone else owns.

How is it ridiculous? Mean and median earnings in the US have gone down in the last few years. One of the few things propping them up from sinking further is the artificial bottom of the minimum wage laws. Those minimums keep everyone else balanced as well.

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

I'm betting your favorite bass player makes tons of money, yet somehow I doubt that you are advocating taking anything from him. I am also willing to bet you are ranting against companies like Apple while responding to this thread on an I phone someone else bought for you. lol

Most of my favorite bass players are not multimillionaires. And no, I'm replying from a desktop that I assembled myself.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

You want a "say" in high ranking employees pay ?

Buy stock in the company, and vote your shares at stockholder meetings like the rest of us.

Can't afford stocks, too bad.

"Only the rich should have a say as to whether the distribution of wealth is fair."

[BawanaRik]

I suggest you read the paper. Employers are all too often held responsible for acts of employees.

And Insurance Companies? That's just another word for you and me.

__________________________________________________ __

If the laws are changed to deny a gas company excessive intrusion into the lives of its employees, then the gas company hasn't failed to protect the public. The criminal liability is on the intoxicated employee, and the costs of the damage are for insurance to pay for.[/quote]

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

"Only the rich should have a say as to whether the distribution of wealth is fair."

Bingo.

[Floyd Eye]

The majority disagree with me? Prove it.

I can tell you why incomes have gone down over the past 4-5 years, but I don't want to be banned. lol

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

I disagree, class inequities are very much present in the United States and there is no such thing as equal opportunity. This is merely a meritocratic illusion you have.

How would you explain people who rose from poverty to become millionaires? If someone wants something enough, they can find a way to get it LEGALLY, by working their tail off. Poor people go to school, graduate from high school and get jobs all the time. If they work hard, keep their head screwed on straight and don't get into trouble, they can have a good life. They won't inherit millions, but they won't have to go on Welfare and receive EBT.

As far as "equal opportunity", how would you describe one person who is very well qualified for a position and being passed up because the company was required to fill a quota, so they promoted a person who failed miserably, but were a member of the group that was needed in order to fill that quota? If that's your idea of equal opportunity, I give up.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

"Only the rich should have a say as to whether the distribution of wealth is fair."

I am far from rich and I can tell you that no matter what, the redistribution of wealth is unfair.

[BawanaRik]

Red Herring? Well there's at least a million people who are trapped in the criminal justice system due to this so called Red Herring.

Drug laws are real. Jail is real. If you don't like them I suggest you takes steps to change them.

Originally Posted by Lonesomedave

and that goes equally for drinkers as well as pot somokers...as i have said, i have not smoked pot in 20 years although i do have a beer several times a week.

smoking or drinking is not a right, but a privilige...at least drinking is right now...smoking pot is still a crime in most states.

i am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of treating drinkers (who use the more dangerous drug) differently from pot smokers (who use the less dangerous drug)

can YOU justify that distinction...besides using the red herring of "well, one is illegal and the other is not"...because we have already determined that laws can and do change and further, are sometimes made on very flimsy bases, not on anything that makes sense.

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

The majority disagree with me? Prove it.

I can tell you why incomes have gone down over the past 4-5 years, but I don't want to be banned. lol

Do you really want a list and their field of expertise? This could prove to be a long exercise.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

To make my point simple , let's assume two kids have the same capacities and goals but one is from a poor family and neighborhood and the other the opposite. Let's again assume, again for the sake of the argument, both invest the same amount of work and are equally lucky/unlucky. Will they end up in similar situations? Most definitely not.

Even in societies with democratized education systems (ie: France) it has been proven kids from rich families are more successful.

This is not equal opportunity, some people face way more challenge than others because of which social class they come from, what skin color they have, etc. Social mobility in the US is actually pretty bad.

Success is not based on merit, I would dare say the fraction we can attribute to merit is actually small compared to many other factors.

To believe you get what you deserve or work for is an illusion.

I think a lot of the advantages are due to being a member of a certain family, knowing the right people, etc. That hasn't changed in a long, long time. However, if someone grew up poor and is qualified, they aren't guaranteed a life of obscurity and remaining in poverty. I know a lot of losers who came from wealthy families- I'm sure their parents didn't expect that.

[Lowactnsatsfctn]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

Recognizing an imbalance doesn't mean that something should just be written off as "jealousy."

"Those slaves are just jealous of the plantation owner, pay them no mind!"

Please tell me what American job has someone who beats you, forces you to sleep in a barn and rations you minimal amounts of food without pay??
Slavery and unskilled workers receiving lousy pay and unfavorable conditions are far from the same. Slaves are forced into captivity, while low paid workers are free to do as they please, but choose to settle for mediocrity.

If you want to put a cap on another persons success that you had no contributions too, you're selfish and jealous.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

Do you really want a list and their field of expertise? This could prove to be a long exercise.

I am not the one who made the claim.

My wife, incidentally, is an economist ( 1 year left on her masters), so while I may not be the finest economic mind, I have picked up some useful information along the way.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Lowactnsatsfctn

Please tell me what American job has someone who beats you, forces you to sleep in a barn and rations you minimal amounts of food without pay??
Slavery and unskilled workers receiving lousy pay and unfavorable conditions are far from the same. Slaves are forced into captivity, while low paid workers are free to do as they please, but choose to settle for mediocrity.

If you want to put a cap on another persons success that you had no contributions too, you're selfish and jealous.

^
This

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

I am not the one who made the claim.

My wife, incidentally, is an economist ( 1 year left on her masters), so while I may not be the finest economic mind, I have picked up some useful information along the way.

You're clearly a libertarian. Just sayin'

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

Bingo.

Good to know I've got at least someone in the audience who appreciates my take on things.

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

I am far from rich and I can tell you that no matter what, the redistribution of wealth is unfair.

Really? I'm sure you appreciate the roads you drive on, the schools that are available for your kids to go to, the military that's there to defend you, the firefighters to keep you safe, the oversight that goes into everything you consume to ensure it's not hazardous, the grants, loans, and bonds that helped start the businesses you use, blah blah blah.

Guess what? That's all from taxes. Guess what all that is? Redistribution of wealth. Take everyone's wealth, and pass it around to where it's needed. Some of it works better than others, but you don't realize how much you're taking for granted.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

You're clearly a libertarian. Just sayin'

I wouldn't try to dispute this.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Lowactnsatsfctn

Please tell me what American job has someone who beats you, forces you to sleep in a barn and rations you minimal amounts of food without pay??
Slavery and unskilled workers receiving lousy pay and unfavorable conditions are far from the same. Slaves are forced into captivity, while low paid workers are free to do as they please, but choose to settle for mediocrity.

If you want to put a cap on another persons success that you had no contributions too, you're selfish and jealous.

My point was that accusing someone of jealousy isn't an adequate defense of an unfair system.

It's called an ad hominem. It's attacking the speaker rather than the subject matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem