Would you/do you submit to drug tests at work?

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

Good to know I've got at least someone in the audience who appreciates my take on things.

Really? I'm sure you appreciate the roads you drive on, the schools that are available for your kids to go to, the military that's there to defend you, the firefighters to keep you safe, the oversight that goes into everything you consume to ensure it's not hazardous, the grants, loans, and bonds that helped start the businesses you use, blah blah blah.

Guess what? That's all from taxes. Guess what all that is? Redistribution of wealth. Take everyone's wealth, and pass it around to where it's needed. Some of it works better than others, but you don't realize how much you're taking for granted.

On the contrary, I realize pretty much exactly what it takes to maintain all those things. What it doesn't take is progressive tax rates. It also doesn't account for things like entitlements or foreign aid. If you want 10% of Buffet's money, you need to be willing to give up 10% of yours, regardless of your tax bracket.

Funny how we had all those things before there even was an income tax. lol


I guess you think there is no spending problem with our government either huh?

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

Good to know I've got at least someone in the audience who appreciates my take on things.

Really? I'm sure you appreciate the roads you drive on, the schools that are available for your kids to go to, the military that's there to defend you, the firefighters to keep you safe, the oversight that goes into everything you consume to ensure it's not hazardous, the grants, loans, and bonds that helped start the businesses you use, blah blah blah.

Guess what? That's all from taxes. Guess what all that is? Redistribution of wealth. Take everyone's wealth, and pass it around to where it's needed. Some of it works better than others, but you don't realize how much you're taking for granted.

Hey, every audience needs a few progressive commy hippies with dreads

Social justice theories have always been an interest of mine. One can't be in favor of libertarianism after reading rawls, kymlicka, taylor and etc. Screw Nozick.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

My point was that accusing someone of jealousy isn't an adequate defense of an unfair system.

It's called an ad hominem. It's attacking the speaker rather than the subject matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Yes, we all know what it means and like virtually every other time that term is trotted out by guys like you, it is clearly irrelevant and obviously used as a defensive measure against a position you hold, yet wish to pretend you don't.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

On the contrary, I realize pretty much exactly what it takes to maintain all those things. What it doesn't take is progressive tax rates. It also doesn't account for things like entitlements or foreign aid. If you want 10% of Buffet's money, you need to be willing to give up 10% of yours, regardless of your tax bracket.

No. Progressive tax rates just make it reasonable.

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Funny how we had all those things before there even was an income tax. lol


I guess you think there is no spending problem with our government either huh?

We had a standing army before income tax? We had social security before an income tax? We had highways before income tax? Safe foods to eat before income tax? Etc. Etc.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

Hey, every audience needs a few progressive commy hippies with dreads

Social justice theories have always been an interest of mine. One can't be in favor of libertarianism after reading rawls, kymlicka, taylor and etc. Screw Nozick.

Never heard of any of those guys.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Yes, we all know what it means and like virtually every other time that term is trotted out by guys like you, it is clearly irrelevant and obviously used as a defensive measure against a position you hold, yet wish to pretend you don't.

Intentionally ironic, or just a natural gift?

[Lowactnsatsfctn]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

My point was that accusing someone of jealousy isn't an adequate defense of an unfair system.

It's called an ad hominem. It's attacking the speaker rather than the subject matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Stating facts about your comparison to slaves and unskilled workers is hardly a personal attack.

Truth is, that if you didn't build or earn it, it is not yours to decide what is done with it because it doesn't benefit you. Thinking otherwise, is envious and lusting after another persons belongings.
I didn't make it that way, I just noticed it.

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

No. Progressive tax rates just make it reasonable.

We had a standing army before income tax? We had social security before an income tax? We had highways before income tax? Safe foods to eat before income tax? Etc. Etc.

There is nothing reasonable about progressive tax. It is pure jealousy and greed.

SS is a wreck, I sure as hell wouldn't hold it up as a beacon of anything.
Sure we had standing armies before income tax. Read much?
We didn't even have the technology or necessity to build highways before income tax.

You think we have safer food to eat now than we did before income tax? Ha ha ha ha.

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by deeptubes

We've been saying this for many pages now. They're not getting it.

I'm pretty sure many company owners/managers don't agree that drug tests should be allowed for the same reasons, but they may be mandated to conduct them if they want to do business with the client/customer, e.g., Federal Government work. Some companies do almost nothing BUT government work because it can be very lucrative and, since they don't want to give up that particular customer, they keep doing what's required.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Lowactnsatsfctn

Stating facts about your comparison to slaves and unskilled workers is hardly a personal attack.

No, the ad hominem is in regards to this being an issue of jealousy rather than an issue of unfairness.

Originally Posted by Lowactnsatsfctn

Truth is, that if you didn't build or earn it, it is not yours to decide what is done with it because it doesn't benefit you. Thinking otherwise, is envious and lusting after another persons belongings.
I didn't make it that way, I just noticed it.

No one is an island. Anything built was built by a society. No lone Egyptian pharaoh built a pyramid, it was the engineers, the quarrymen, the laborers, the financiers, the soldiers, wives, cooks, shoemakers, etc. He just stuck his name on the door and his corpse in the center.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

Hey, every audience needs a few progressive commy hippies with dreads

Social justice theories have always been an interest of mine. One can't be in favor of libertarianism after reading rawls, kymlicka, taylor and etc. Screw Nozick.

sure one can...i bet i could...unfortunately i will never know, because i no longer read any political stuff, much less stuff i suspect won't be of any benefit to me.

if my libertarian views came through college unscathed, there is no way they are going to be even ruffled by some ivory tower theoreticians.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

There is nothing reasonable about progressive tax. It is pure jealousy and greed.

SS is a wreck, I sure as hell wouldn't hold it up as a beacon of anything.
Sure we had standing armies before income tax. Read much?
We didn't even have the technology or necessity to build highways before income tax.

You think we have safer food to eat now than we did before income tax? Ha ha ha ha.

We're safer than we were when Upton Sinclair wrote "The Jungle" which came out around the same time a peacetime income tax did.

The technology also largely came from taxes. All that stuff that we take for granted that NASA created? Yup. Redistribution of wealth.

[Floyd Eye]

Well, as fun as this thread has been, I feel it's usefulness ( for me anyway) is long gone. The only purpose it could serve now is to get us in trouble with the mods, so I am out.

I will say it was a pleasant conversation and I thank you all very much for allowing me to participate in it. Even, or especially, those I disagree with.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

No, the ad hominem is in regards to this being an issue of jealousy rather than an issue of unfairness.

No one is an island. Anything built was built by a society. No lone Egyptian pharaoh built a pyramid, it was the engineers, the quarrymen, the laborers, the financiers, the soldiers, wives, cooks, shoemakers, etc. He just stuck his name on the door and his corpse in the center.

the world is not fair and will never be...the only attempt that i've heard that even comes close is the lifestyle of certain scandinavian countries...who'se populations are uniform and without the ethnic diversity of america.

and the jury is still out on whether they can make it long term...i wish them the best.

the better comparison is hong kong in the old days vs. communist china...and you notice, china is coming more & more into the capitalist sphere...even they realized the truth.

[Lonesomedave]

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

Well, as fun as this thread has been, I feel it's usefulness ( for me anyway) is long gone. The only purpose it could serve now is to get us in trouble with the mods, so I am out.

I will say it was a pleasant conversation and I thank you all very much for allowing me to participate in it. Even, or especially, those I disagree with.

adios, Floyd...i guess i am too.

see ya'll on the flip flop

[1958Bassman]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

Mandatory testing upon employment? No.
Tested if there's suspicions that they might be using? Yes. But not via a piss-test.
Mandatory "right now tests" before a work-shift? Yes.

What if the only evidence that a commercial pilot has a problem comes in the form of them auguring a jet loaded with 300 passengers into a crowded shopping center, school, government facility or stadium with 50K fans? Is it time to test then?

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by 1958Bassman

What if the only evidence that a commercial pilot has a problem comes in the form of them auguring a jet loaded with 300 passengers into a crowded shopping center, school, government facility or stadium with 50K fans? Is it time to test then?

The "right-now" tests at the beginning of the work-shift would of prevented that. I'm not against that measure.

Also, if one is a junkie to the point he has to shoot or something during his work shift, others will have noticed before that which should of resulted in a drug test based upon suspicions...

[TOOL460002]

If drug addiction is a disease, then shouldn't it be confidential like all medical issues? Can you tell a prospective employee that they have to divulge their medical records before they can be hired? I can think of some special circumstances, but I'm just asking in general.

[Lowactnsatsfctn]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

No, the ad hominem is in regards to this being an issue of jealousy rather than an issue of unfairness.

No one is an island. Anything built was built by a society. No lone Egyptian pharaoh built a pyramid, it was the engineers, the quarrymen, the laborers, the financiers, the soldiers, wives, cooks, shoemakers, etc. He just stuck his name on the door and his corpse in the center.

I've heard a similar speech before

If you think society as a whole had the biggest role in every single manufacturing process, every sole proprietorship, and every hand made item ever, without the ideas and motivation of an individual, you're very wrong.
Society didn't tell Greenboy to make custom cabs, and if he becomes the next Hartley Peavey or Robert Gallien, great. That would be by his doings, and his choices. That is success that is earned by an individual, not a gift form society.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Lowactnsatsfctn

I've heard a similar speech before

If you think society as a whole had the biggest role in every single manufacturing process, every sole proprietorship, and every hand made item ever, without the ideas and motivation of an individual, you're very wrong.
Society didn't tell Greenboy to make custom cabs, and if he becomes the next Hartley Peavey or Robert Gallien, great. That would be by his doings, and his choices. That is success that is earned by an individual, not a gift form society.

No, but society gave Greenboy his education, the social stability to engage in commerce, the other companies he contracts with to source parts, and the telecommunications necessary to interact with other customers, to name just a few.

Not trying to take all credit from him, just noting every chef has a lot of line and sous chefs making sure you get that tasty dinner.