Is it wrong to think you're unattractive?

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by Stewie26

Well hello...nothing surprising about that. When it comes to picking a mate our primal instincts still kick in strong. Just like the females bitches in a wolf pack don't want a weak wimpy mate the same pretty much goes for human species.
Edit: In the animal world is is not always the best looking one that wins. It's the one that is confident, can provide and protect it's mate and offspring.

Well, attractiveness is an indicator of health and fitness that will be passed on to your progeny. Birds are a good example. The male birds develop colorful plummage, songs and intricate dances that they display for the female. The female selects the male with the best display as it is an indicator of a robust and healthy mate that will produce healthy offspring. For us guys, that equates to size, strength and virility. Height in particular should never be underestimated. Studies always show that women will slight shorter men in favor of taller men. Confidence did not make any impact if height was a consideration.

However, survival for primates involves teamwork and cooperation. Therefore, acceptance of the individual by the troop is critical. Primates also have social orders that determine not just basic survival, but also relative "success" within the troop. An outcast does not fare well and does not have much opportunity for procreation. Therefore, amongst primates, social standing and communication are critical to greater success. So, basically, this means that shy diminutive men finish last and alpha males come in first. Every variation in between will have proportional levels of success.

Thus the old saying - nice guys finish last. Of course, the correctness of this statement is relative. If someone is consoling themselves with this statement, chances are that they are simply rationalizing a situation where they were unsuccessful. "Unsuccessful" should not be equated with "niceness".

In any case, the OP seems to think that greater handsomeness and confidence might compensate for his lack of stature. However, when we're talking about what is attractive in a male, it's not just about looking like Redford. With guys, it has a bit more to do with that hard to define "swagger" that makes him attractive to the opposite sex. Swagger could be looked at as a kind of social prowess that, amongst men, is important in determining your social status. Guys who are funny have a level of swagger. Macho guys obviously have some swagger. Jocks have swagger, etc... and yes, size does matter in this area because it is helpful when you are dealing with other men - not just during confrontations.

So, male "attractiveness" is not based on "handsomeness". In that regard, I think the OP is off base. He may be correct in thinking that he is "unattractive" and therefore unsuccessful. I am not saying that he is or is not. It's not my place to make that determination, but if he is unattractive, it's not be because he is "ugly", but because he is lacking in these other areas.

A lot of guys in this thread are going on about how they are unattractive but they managed to be successful, but they are missing the point. They are using unattractive in the sense of uglyness or not being handsome The OP is not ugly to women, he is unattractive to women (if this is true) and height is likely the biggest contributor. Financial success or social success could compensate, but it will have to be significant.

With regard to confidence, I think it hurts if you dont have it, but having it will only take you to your full potential. It will not take you beyond your potential. So the OP can be handsome and confident, but still be unattractive. However, let me say that his claim of confidence seems to fly in the face of this whole conversation. The fact that the question is being raised in this forum seems to indicate that his confidence has taken a hit. Acceptance and confidence should not be confused in this regard.

If there are a lot of attractive (successful) guys in his area, he is going to seem even less attractive. You have to ask what industry is he working in. What area is he in? Are the women in this area specifically targeting highly successful men? Is this New York City or some other type of business or financial center? This might be a factor as well. Isn't it funny that we always seem to see guys who we think of as overly competitive self-centered jerks with beautiful trophy wives and girlfriends. Notice that I said wives and girlfriends not wives or girlfriends.

[scorpionldr]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Well, attractiveness is an indicator of health and fitness that will be passed on to your progeny. Birds are a good example. The male birds develop colorful plummage, songs and intricate dances that they display for the female. The female selects the male with the best display as it is an indicator of a robust and healthy mate that will produce healthy offspring. For us guys, that equates to size, strength and virility. Height in particular should never be underestimated. Studies always show that women will slight shorter men in favor of taller men. Confidence did not make any impact if height was a consideration.

However, survival for primates involves teamwork and cooperation. Therefore, acceptance of the individual by the troop is critical. Primates also have social orders that determine not just basic survival, but also relative "success" within the troop. An outcast does not fare well and does not have much opportunity for procreation. Therefore, amongst primates, social standing and communication are critical to greater success. So, basically, this means that shy diminutive men finish last and alpha males come in first. Every variation in between will have proportional levels of success.

Thus the old saying - nice guys finish last. Of course, the correctness of this statement is relative. If someone is consoling themselves with this statement, chances are that they are simply rationalizing a situation where they were unsuccessful. "Unsuccessful" should not be equated with "niceness".

In any case, the OP seems to think that greater handsomeness and confidence might compensate for his lack of stature. However, when we're talking about what is attractive in a male, it's not just about looking like Redford. With guys, it has a bit more to do with that hard to define "swagger" that makes him attractive to the opposite sex. Swagger could be looked at as a kind of social prowess that, amongst men, is important in determining your social status. Guys who are funny have a level of swagger. Macho guys obviously have some swagger. Jocks have swagger, etc... and yes, size does matter in this area because it is helpful when you are dealing with other men - not just during confrontations.

So, male "attractiveness" is not based on "handsomeness". In that regard, I think the OP is off base. He may be correct in thinking that he is "unattractive" and therefore unsuccessful. I am not saying that he is or is not. It's not my place to make that determination, but if he is unattractive, it's not be because he is "ugly", but because he is lacking in these other areas.

A lot of guys in this thread are going on about how they are unattractive but they managed to be successful, but they are missing the point. They are using unattractive in the sense of uglyness or not being handsome The OP is not ugly to women, he is unattractive to women (if this is true) and height is likely the biggest contributor. Financial success or social success could compensate, but it will have to be significant.

With regard to confidence, I think it hurts if you dont have it, but having it will only take you to your full potential. It will not take you beyond your potential. So the OP can be handsome and confident, but still be unattractive. However, let me say that his claim of confidence seems to fly in the face of this whole conversation. The fact that the question is being raised in this forum seems to indicate that his confidence has taken a hit. Acceptance and confidence should not be confused in this regard.

If there are a lot of attractive (successful) guys in his area, he is going to seem even less attractive. You have to ask what industry is he working in. What area is he in? Are the women in this area specifically targeting highly successful men? Is this New York City or some other type of business or financial center? This might be a factor as well. Isn't it funny that we always seem to see guys who we think of as overly competitive self-centered jerks with beautiful trophy wives and girlfriends. Notice that I said wives and girlfriends not wives or girlfriends.

I think we should start a group. THE BASSBIRDS!!!!

[Ziltoid]

Ah gosh, now there's two of him.

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

Ah gosh, now there's two of him.

ROFL!!!! This thread just got better... or worse. It got more something, that's for damn sure.

[Ziltoid]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

ROFL!!!! This thread just got better... or worse. It got more something, that's for damn sure.

I thought this thread was about not getting anything? I'm confused now

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by Ziltoid

I thought this thread was about not getting anything? I'm confused now

Or could it be about getting everything?

#questionsthatneedanswers

[champbassist]

I actually agree with the confidence part of Avalon's post. Honestly, the most prolific guy 'daters' I've known have been those with the most confidence.

Originally Posted by Avalon

Are the women in this area specifically targeting highly successful men? Is this New York City or some other type of business or financial center? This might be a factor as well.

Agree with that as well: similar to the point as I made a few pages back, regarding what girls want in guys, especially considering the idiosyncrasies of the social structure at a particular place. I admit that this does look a bit overanalytical, but it isn't implausible.

[Avalon]

Hmmmm... maybe I should go back and take another stab at it. Not sure if I like how the first draft came out...

Well anyway, I eventually did go back and read through all 14 pages of this thread. Now I also have to say that I would agree with the assessment that the relationship with his wife has given him a hard knock.

OP, I feel for you man, cause I have been through tough times in the past and am experiencing another set of difficulties now. Your situation does not sound healthy, I'll say that. In any case, everything is temporary. Everything, including your own attitude. Sometimes it's one day at a time. Just start each day with the best cup of coffee that you can get cause small things mean a lot.

[One Drop]

No, I think you have made some good points about attractiveness, that being attractive to a potential mate is based on more than a simple physical ideal.

Of course we are not more evolved than animals, we are animals who have evolved in our own way like every other one. But due to the complexity of our natures and our own self-awareness as entities, it is way too simplistic to negate cultural conditioning, geographical conditions, food supply, and a million other variables that affect how a species maintains its survival, and thus affect what is considered attractive at any given time in any given human population.

[scorpionldr]

Originally Posted by One Drop

No, I think you have made some good points about attractiveness, that being attractive to a potential mate is based on more than a simple physical ideal.

Of course we are not more evolved than animals, we are animals who have evolved in our own way like every other one. But due to the complexity of our natures and our own self-awareness as entities, it is way too simplistic to negate cultural conditioning, geographical conditions, food supply, and a million other variables that affect how a species maintains its survival, and thus affect what is considered attractive at any given time in any given human population.

Well when your society caters to the lowest common denominator it's much less feasible to assume all members of society can be turned in to productive efficient beings, no?

When the focus turns from who can offer dinners consistently because of hunting skills and who can offer a wad of silly green paper through questionable means I think it's clear that the animals may not lead the more inclusive life but certainly promise the more desirable one.

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by One Drop

No, I think you have made some good points about attractiveness, that being attractive to a potential mate is based on more than a simple physical ideal.

Of course we are not more evolved than animals, we are animals who have evolved in our own way like every other one. But due to the complexity of our natures and our own self-awareness as entities, it is way too simplistic to negate cultural conditioning, geographical conditions, food supply, and a million other variables that affect how a species maintains its survival, and thus affect what is considered attractive at any given time in any given human population.

Oh yes, quite right, but I wanted to limit the length of my discertation. Thus, I just shot for a few things that were on my mind. Also, I've been watching a lot of Animal Planet and National Geographic videos on YouTube and needed a place to expound upon a few things that I had been cogitating on. It's nice to have a captive audience sometimes.

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by scorpionldr

Well when your society caters to the lowest common denominator it's much less feasible to assume all members of society can be turned in to productive efficient beings, no?

When the focus turns from who can offer dinners consistently because of hunting skills and who can offer a wad of silly green paper through questionable means I think it's clear that the animals may not lead the more inclusive life but certainly promise the more desirable one.

Being one a person who came from a background of many negative influences, I understand the need to vent, but I would suggest being a bit more selective in deciding how often and when you do it. In other words, you're very intelligent and have a valuable perspective, but please do turn it down a little. You may not realize how heavy handed you come across. Just take that as a friendly gesture, FWIW.

On the other hand, if you want to listed to someone who does a good job of delivering the kind of message that you might be interested in hearing, look up Christopher Hitchens in YouTube. He recently passed away and I consider it a great loss.

[Nvr2old]

Being a newbie around here I resisted posting on this last night, but a few things struck me about this conversation that I didn't see; no one's made the "unattractive" comparison to music and band-mates.

I just started playing a few years ago, and my big worry was that any band I wanted to play with would find me "unattractive" because really, 98% of the players out there were much more technically skilled (attractive) than me. I was lucky enough to put something together with a kickass guitarist, an ex-touring drummer, and a young talented singer. Kind of like my marriage; even though I'm short, overweight, and bald (and not rich by any stretch), I scored an incredibly hot mate who could have had her pick of anyone.

How does this work? I caught a Victor Wooten Q&A a couple weeks back that explained it really well. As he said, there's a lot of technically gifted players (attractive) who have trouble finding bands and/or selling gigs. As Wooten said, the key is not how technically skilled one is but rather how well one listens to the rest of the band and syncs up with everyone, and how well they interact with an audience. I'd spent almost a year now with my band worrying about being the dog and trying to hide it by really listening to the drummer and staying tight to him, listening to the guitarist and holding a tight, if simple, driving rhythm and encouraging him to solo at will, encouraging our singer to experiment and not worry about doing anything the "right" way but do it "her" way, and looking out at audience members and smiling and shucking to the groove, and laughing when I screw up. Not only have we been a popular draw, but I turn down offers to play with other bands. 95% of the players out there are still more technically proficient than me, but if I let myself get hung up on that as making me unattractive I'd self destruct.

And I worry that this is what's happening to our original poster.

All the things I do to mask my unattractiveness as a bass player I did to court my Out Of My League wife. I listen actively, contribute accordingly, and encourage whatever she thinks she might like to try to do in spite of her personal insecurities, and like magic, I become attractive.

Oh, one more tip to being "attractive" when you're not -- a really good foot massage. Seriously dudes, I don't care how unattractive you think you are, you learn to give your lady a good foot massage and you'll be a rock-star. Ladies, amiright?

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by Nvr2old

Oh, one more tip to being "attractive" when you're not -- a really good foot massage. Seriously dudes, I don't care how unattractive you think you are, you learn to give your lady a good foot massage and you'll be a rock-star. Ladies, amiright?

I think one would have to achieve a position of considerable intimacy with a lady to be in a position to give her a foot massage which, in itself, would require a certain degree of 'attractiveness' (whatever that means)

[spade2you]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Well, attractiveness is an indicator of health and fitness that will be passed on to your progeny. Birds are a good example. The male birds develop colorful plummage, songs and intricate dances that they display for the female. The female selects the male with the best display as it is an indicator of a robust and healthy mate that will produce healthy offspring. For us guys, that equates to size, strength and virility. Height in particular should never be underestimated. Studies always show that women will slight shorter men in favor of taller men. Confidence did not make any impact if height was a consideration.

However, survival for primates involves teamwork and cooperation. Therefore, acceptance of the individual by the troop is critical. Primates also have social orders that determine not just basic survival, but also relative "success" within the troop. An outcast does not fare well and does not have much opportunity for procreation. Therefore, amongst primates, social standing and communication are critical to greater success. So, basically, this means that shy diminutive men finish last and alpha males come in first. Every variation in between will have proportional levels of success.

Thus the old saying - nice guys finish last. Of course, the correctness of this statement is relative. If someone is consoling themselves with this statement, chances are that they are simply rationalizing a situation where they were unsuccessful. "Unsuccessful" should not be equated with "niceness".

In any case, the OP seems to think that greater handsomeness and confidence might compensate for his lack of stature. However, when we're talking about what is attractive in a male, it's not just about looking like Redford. With guys, it has a bit more to do with that hard to define "swagger" that makes him attractive to the opposite sex. Swagger could be looked at as a kind of social prowess that, amongst men, is important in determining your social status. Guys who are funny have a level of swagger. Macho guys obviously have some swagger. Jocks have swagger, etc... and yes, size does matter in this area because it is helpful when you are dealing with other men - not just during confrontations.

So, male "attractiveness" is not based on "handsomeness". In that regard, I think the OP is off base. He may be correct in thinking that he is "unattractive" and therefore unsuccessful. I am not saying that he is or is not. It's not my place to make that determination, but if he is unattractive, it's not be because he is "ugly", but because he is lacking in these other areas.

A lot of guys in this thread are going on about how they are unattractive but they managed to be successful, but they are missing the point. They are using unattractive in the sense of uglyness or not being handsome The OP is not ugly to women, he is unattractive to women (if this is true) and height is likely the biggest contributor. Financial success or social success could compensate, but it will have to be significant.

With regard to confidence, I think it hurts if you dont have it, but having it will only take you to your full potential. It will not take you beyond your potential. So the OP can be handsome and confident, but still be unattractive. However, let me say that his claim of confidence seems to fly in the face of this whole conversation. The fact that the question is being raised in this forum seems to indicate that his confidence has taken a hit. Acceptance and confidence should not be confused in this regard.

If there are a lot of attractive (successful) guys in his area, he is going to seem even less attractive. You have to ask what industry is he working in. What area is he in? Are the women in this area specifically targeting highly successful men? Is this New York City or some other type of business or financial center? This might be a factor as well. Isn't it funny that we always seem to see guys who we think of as overly competitive self-centered jerks with beautiful trophy wives and girlfriends. Notice that I said wives and girlfriends not wives or girlfriends.

I don't quite have time to quote everything today.

One thing other short guys might agree with is that we need to be careful about how much confidence we display. I've occasionally heard gossip/complaints about me or other short guys. If you exceed a given amount of "acceptable" confidence, it's very easy to get labeled as having a Napoleon complex. The whole confidence thing gets really annoying to me. I am confident. It's easy for people to tell me that I have zero confidence or that I'm a cocky bastard.

I honestly don't blame myself too much. I can't control my genetics. Back to the hair debate, I remember many people telling me that my hair was too long back in the day, but now it's disappointing that I have no hair?!

To a certain extent, what I'm good at generally isn't valued. I'm about as reliable as they get, yet my work has never noticed any of my strong traits. I've been there a really long time and rarely call in sick. I think I've even heard that most employers want a guy who moves on every 5-6 years to get people who are more "fresh".

Regardless, no argument that my relationship needs a heck of a lot of work. Listening isn't her strong suit.

[scorpionldr]

Originally Posted by Nvr2old

Being a newbie around here I resisted posting on this last night, but a few things struck me about this conversation that I didn't see; no one's made the "unattractive" comparison to music and band-mates.

I just started playing a few years ago, and my big worry was that any band I wanted to play with would find me "unattractive" because really, 98% of the players out there were much more technically skilled (attractive) than me. I was lucky enough to put something together with a kickass guitarist, an ex-touring drummer, and a young talented singer. Kind of like my marriage; even though I'm short, overweight, and bald (and not rich by any stretch), I scored an incredibly hot mate who could have had her pick of anyone.

How does this work? I caught a Victor Wooten Q&A a couple weeks back that explained it really well. As he said, there's a lot of technically gifted players (attractive) who have trouble finding bands and/or selling gigs. As Wooten said, the key is not how technically skilled one is but rather how well one listens to the rest of the band and syncs up with everyone, and how well they interact with an audience. I'd spent almost a year now with my band worrying about being the dog and trying to hide it by really listening to the drummer and staying tight to him, listening to the guitarist and holding a tight, if simple, driving rhythm and encouraging him to solo at will, encouraging our singer to experiment and not worry about doing anything the "right" way but do it "her" way, and looking out at audience members and smiling and shucking to the groove, and laughing when I screw up. Not only have we been a popular draw, but I turn down offers to play with other bands. 95% of the players out there are still more technically proficient than me, but if I let myself get hung up on that as making me unattractive I'd self destruct.

And I worry that this is what's happening to our original poster.

All the things I do to mask my unattractiveness as a bass player I did to court my Out Of My League wife. I listen actively, contribute accordingly, and encourage whatever she thinks she might like to try to do in spite of her personal insecurities, and like magic, I become attractive.

Oh, one more tip to being "attractive" when you're not -- a really good foot massage. Seriously dudes, I don't care how unattractive you think you are, you learn to give your lady a good foot massage and you'll be a rock-star. Ladies, amiright?

so you "Played the good guy" and got "rewarded for good behavior"?

Originally Posted by champbassist

I think one would have to achieve a position of considerable intimacy with a lady to be in a position to give her a foot massage which, in itself, would require a certain degree of 'attractiveness' (whatever that means)

The lesson that seems to have been "forgotten" in the lesson plan of life that I keep harping on so heavily for.

Originally Posted by Avalon

Being one a person who came from a background of many negative influences, I understand the need to vent, but I would suggest being a bit more selective in deciding how often and when you do it. In other words, you're very intelligent and have a valuable perspective, but please do turn it down a little. You may not realize how heavy handed you come across. Just take that as a friendly gesture, FWIW.

On the other hand, if you want to listed to someone who does a good job of delivering the kind of message that you might be interested in hearing, look up Christopher Hitchens in YouTube. He recently passed away and I consider it a great loss.

I was just about to go on a great digression, but I will say I appreciate you're reading, and I try to avoid being "heavy handed", or at least try to be "gently heavy handed" in trying to share viewpoints. Thank you.

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by scorpionldr

I was just about to go on a great digression, but I will say I appreciate you're reading, and I try to avoid being "heavy handed", or at least try to be "gently heavy handed" in trying to share viewpoints. Thank you.

Sure, and I apologize if I come off as superior or anything of the like. I find it difficult to "modulate" the inner monologue that others will "hear" in my written responses. I just note that you are in your 20s and I am in my late 40s. At times I have had similar discoveries about myself, so I thought I would share.

[Nvr2old]

Originally Posted by champbassist

I think one would have to achieve a position of considerable intimacy with a lady to be in a position to give her a foot massage which, in itself, would require a certain degree of 'attractiveness' (whatever that means)

It comes not far after the hand holding stage, which, if you're doing it right, should never stop.

[Nvr2old]

Originally Posted by spade2you

Regardless, no argument that my relationship needs a heck of a lot of work. Listening isn't her strong suit.

Make it yours.

[scorpionldr]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Sure, and I apologize if I come off as superior or anything of the like. I find it difficult to "modulate" the inner monologue that others will "hear" in my written responses. I just note that you are in your 20s and I am in my late 40s. At times I have had similar discoveries about myself, so I thought I would share.

Nah, it's cool, I'm just controlling how much of an ***-hat on TB I can be, not trying to rain doom with the animal human differential haha.