WWII Stealth Bomber and other cool wartime tech

[Solarmist]

With its smooth and elegant lines, this could be a prototype for some future successor to the stealth bomber. But this flying wing was actually designed by the Nazis 30 years before the Americans successfully developed radar-invisible technology. Now an engineering team has reconstructed the Horten Ho 2-29 from blueprints, with startling results. The full-scale replica of the Ho 2-29 bomber was made with materials available in the 40s.



First built and tested in the air in March 1944, it was designed with a greater range and speed than any plane previously built and was the first aircraft to use the stealth technology now deployed by the U.S. in its B-2 bombers. Thankfully Hitler's engineers only made three prototypes, tested by being dragged behind a glider, and were not able to build them on an industrial scale before the Allied forces invaded.

[McHaven]

That is awesome, but if it was 1944, thats WWII, not WWI

[GeneralElectric]

Way cool!

Ya know, I always have to give the german war machine credit for crazy inventions. Ever hear of the Maus?

[RWP]

There is SO much technology we took from the Germans and Hitler was such an idiot, he let all his talent go to America. Wernher von Braun was the reason we got to the moon.

[tplyons]

They had a show on this on the National Geographic channel called Hitler's Stealth Fighter... details here: http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...-3942/Overview

Really a fascinating show. And to think if this design didn't crash during testing, it could have been put into production. Likewise, the Horton brothers were designing a six engine transcontinental bomber version to bomb the US. As awesome as that plane is, I'm glad it didn't work out... we might live in a very different world otherwise.

[The Professor]

To call it intentionally stealth is a bit of a misunderstanding... it was discovered at a later date that the aircraft was harder to see on radar than other comparable aircraft of it's size and weight. The History channel labels it wrong for ratings. 1944 was far too early for "stealth" to be considered.

The Horten Brothers of Germany designed their flying wings to be as aerodynamically clean as possible, much like American Jack Northrop did for his designs (see Northrop YB-35 and YB-49). Having clean slipstreams with thick chord and blended wings happen to be stealthy because they get rid of right-angles, but that's a convenent after-effect of the design.

Another point: Stealth wasn't a realistic consideration for aircraft designers until 1962, when an obscure Soviet physicist named Petr Ufimtsev wrote a paper detailing the formulas needed to calculate radar cross-sections... and it wasn't until late 1970's that computers were designed that could crunch his numbers.

-The Professor-

[Darkstrike]

Wow, that plane is awesome, but uh........ yeah.

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by tplyons

They had a show on this on the National Geographic channel called Hitler's Stealth Fighter... details here: http://channel.nationalgeographic.co...-3942/Overview

Really a fascinating show. And to think if this design didn't crash during testing, it could have been put into production. Likewise, the Horton brothers were designing a six engine transcontinental bomber version to bomb the US. As awesome as that plane is, I'm glad it didn't work out... we might live in a very different world otherwise.

Ar E.555-1 American Bomber Project

[Bocete]

I don't think this plane would change the outcome of the war in any way. Planes were brought down by guns, not seeking missiles which might use radar, so this plane would have been just as vulnerable/invulnerable as any other. It's just that they wouldn't be discovered until the planes came really close, which would give them a chance to drop a few bombs... But don't forget, planes were already casually breaking deep into enemy lines to drop supplies/paratroopers/bombs. This one would be more successful in doing so, but that's it. It's not like Hitler would be able to destroy London without being seen or anything remotely close to that.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by RWP

^^ Jack Northrup's story of his flying wing is really sad. He developed a working flying wing bomber at great personal cost and I believe his project was sabotaged, costing him the US Government contract.

i don't know about sabotaged, i think the flying wing technology was just a little too advanced for prime time in the early 50's - the plane that won the contract was basically a ww2 plane that had seen a lot of operational use already. at least he lived long enough to see his developments being used in the b-2.

[RWP]

Originally Posted by john turner

i don't know about sabotaged, i think the flying wing technology was just a little too advanced for prime time in the early 50's - the plane that won the contract was basically a ww2 plane that had seen a lot of operational use already. at least he lived long enough to see his developments being used in the b-2.

I understand the bomb sights of the day were unable to compensate for yaw caused by the lack of rudder on the flying wing. Combine that with the inherent instability of the design and it does become problematic.

[john turner]

i could believe that. northrop was ahead of the curve even in their design paradigms and processes by at least a decade. shoot, they were ahead of the curve during the ww2. (at least with regard to other american builders).

[FL Knifemaker]

They where also planning the Sanger, a low orbit bomber.

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by FL Knifemaker

They where also planning the Sanger, a low orbit bomber.

Woah, that things crazy lookin'

[FL Knifemaker]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Woah, that things crazy lookin'

I think it looks cool as hell especially the German camo version






Yah........

It was supposed to take off on a rocket powered sled on rails using something like a dozen V2 rockets. Then it would land much like the space shuttle. From what I understand it never would have made orbit altituded with the multi V2 power. But they certainly where thinking It's amazing what scientists can come up with when they are "leaned" on

[Blonde Bassist]

Were the stealth properties completely intentional, or just an added bonus of burying the engines deep in the fuselage? With radar technology only in it's infancy, I suppose they could have been trying to think of a way of getting round it, but was it just the consequence of doing something else with the design? I didn't know anyone had found how to reduce the radar signature of a plane so early on. I know the British Mosquito was essentially bit more of a stealth plane because it was mostly a wooden build, making the radar signature very small. Most other aircraft by that point were being built out of metal. I suppose the Hurricane was a low radar signature aircraft as well, seeing as though it was mostly wood and canvas. I thought they only really found out about the stealth advantage of burying the engines with the de havilland comet, the engines were buried in the wings, mainly to reduce noise for use as an airliner (i believe), Avro then adapted it and put it in the Vulcan bomber, giving it some (albeit small) stealth properties.

I worked in an air museum for a while and some of the stuff that was being invented during the war is incredible. I was also fortunate to have gone to the same school the Frank Whittle (invented the jet engine in England) and was able to see some of his early developments, truly inspirational stuff.

[Deathblade Eric]

Originally Posted by Bocete

I don't think this plane would change the outcome of the war in any way. Planes were brought down by guns, not seeking missiles which might use radar, so this plane would have been just as vulnerable/invulnerable as any other. It's just that they wouldn't be discovered until the planes came really close, which would give them a chance to drop a few bombs... But don't forget, planes were already casually breaking deep into enemy lines to drop supplies/paratroopers/bombs. This one would be more successful in doing so, but that's it. It's not like Hitler would be able to destroy London without being seen or anything remotely close to that.

In theory... Given the technology of the day, the Horton was years in advance of any early-warning system the Allies had and (on paper) faster than the most advanced prop-driven aircraft in service. The Me 262 was, also, effectively a "stealth fighter" as borne out by this quote from French air-ace Pierre Clostermann's autobiography "The Big Show" when his squadron of Tempests were stationed within range of their main base at Rheine/Hopsten just before the Allies crossed the Rhine ...

"The Messerschmidt 262's were becoming a distinct nuisance. These blasted jets were appearing on our front in ever-increasing numbers. Every day at dawn and at twilight they came over, singly, at ground level, to take their photographs. Every now and again, just for a change, patrols of three came and machine-gunned or bombed our lines.
For (our) controllers they were a difficult proposition. Radar couldn't pick them up properly as the posts swept the 360 degrees of the horizon too slowly to follow and fix the echo of a '262' batting along at nearly 600 mph at tree-top level."

To shoot something down going that fast & that low using ack-ack relies more on luck than judgement IMO.

Clostermann also expressed the opinion that the 262 was "ten years ahead of its time" - if Hitler hadn't mucked around with the design so much it could have been in service in 1943 & posed a serious threat instead of being a "distinct nusiance."

As to Hitler "destroying London without being seen" he came damn close with the V-1 & V-2 campaigns, and if it weren't for a combination of a sharp pair of eyes at the RAF's Photo-reconnaisance interpretation unit at Medmenham and Barnes Wallis' Tallboy & Grand Slam bombs, we'd have had V-3 to contend with - it's a good job they were stopped when they were.

A huge thanks to the hundreds (if not thousands) of aircrews in the RAF, RCAF, & USAF who helped stop them & who never came home.

Pete.

[GeneralElectric]

I'm a history and political science major, and I like these kinds of discussions. However, the thread was about a German aircraft that was highly improbable at the time, like so much other German WWII technology. (Look at the picture of the Maus I'm posting at the bottom of this) I'm not going to get into why many in Germany joined the SS, or the fact that much of the world's greatest technological and social and successes were built upon the suffering of others. Usually during wartime.

[Blonde Bassist]

Originally Posted by Deathblade Eric

In theory... Given the technology of the day, the Horton was years in advance of any early-warning system the Allies had and (on paper) faster than the most advanced prop-driven aircraft in service. The Me 262 was, also, effectively a "stealth fighter" as borne out by this quote from French air-ace Pierre Clostermann's autobiography "The Big Show" when his squadron of Tempests were stationed within range of their main base at Rheine/Hopsten just before the Allies crossed the Rhine ...

...

For (our) controllers they were a difficult proposition. Radar couldn't pick them up properly as the posts swept the 360 degrees of the horizon too slowly to follow and fix the echo of a '262' batting along at nearly 600 mph at tree-top level."

Pete.

That's amazing, I would never have thought that increasing the speed would affectively render the radar useless. Thinking about it now, it makes conplete sense. The plane is so fast that when the radar sweeps round, the plane has moved so significantly before the return sweep that the it wasn't possible to accurately locate them. That's brilliant, I wonder how long it took them to figure out how to do that, and I wonder which side found out first. My Grandma was living in London during the Blitz and she said the sound of the V1 coming in was horrible. But what was worse was when the sound stopped, once the engine died, it was silent until it hit the ground and exploded. You never knew where they were going to land.

With the talk about technology of that time it reminds me of a story my Great-Uncle told me, he was an RAF pilot during the war, started on Lysanders and was moving up to the Lancaster. For some reason they were finding that a lot of the Lancasters were crashing on landing, even with the most experienced pilots. They found out that it was because the pilots were slightly too short, and couldn't reach the pedals well enough to keep control on landing. After they found that out, my Great Uncle, who I believe was about 5"5 was promptly taken out of Lancaster training and moved to the Spitfire.

[Deathblade Eric]

Originally Posted by Blonde Bassist

My Grandma was living in London during the Blitz and she said the sound of the V1 coming in was horrible. But what was worse was when the sound stopped, once the engine died, it was silent until it hit the ground and exploded. You never knew where they were going to land.

With the talk about technology of that time it reminds me of a story my Great-Uncle told me, he was an RAF pilot during the war, started on Lysanders and was moving up to the Lancaster. For some reason they were finding that a lot of the Lancasters were crashing on landing, even with the most experienced pilots. They found out that it was because the pilots were slightly too short, and couldn't reach the pedals well enough to keep control on landing. After they found that out, my Great Uncle, who I believe was about 5"5 was promptly taken out of Lancaster training and moved to the Spitfire.

Sounds like your great uncle got lucky, I suspect the survival rate in a Spit was higher than that in a Lanc.

Your Gran echoes what I've heard witnesses say as well - here's a scratchy soundclip of a V1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1qsBGTkVSk

Around where I live the evidence is still there - plenty of victorian terraces with gaps filled with 50's blocks of flats. I'm about halfway between the worst V1 hit (Lewisham - 28.07.44 59 dead, 124 injured) and the worst V2 (New Cross - 25.11.44 168 dead, 121 injured). Sobering stuff.

Pete.