Drum poll for non-drummers

[gretschman]

I've often had discussions with other drummers about various drum choices, but only rarely with non-drummers. I'm interested in what other players think about drums, or if they even consider the drums at all. So.....

When you show up to play with a new drummer, do you notice the drums?

Does the configuration (number and sizes of drums and cymbals) of his set imply anything to you about his playing?

Is there an optimum configuration for small group jazz? How about big band? Fusion?

Is the drums' tuning important? Does the tuning of the drums have any affect on your own playing? Does it impact on the sound of the group? If so, what sort of tuning do you like to hear? In your opinion, how well do the drummers you play with tune their drums?

When playing, what part of the set do you listen to most? Least? Is there any part of your drummers' kits that you wish they'd get rid of? Any part you wish they'd use more?

Thanks for reading this far, and for considering these questions. I look forward to reading your responses.

[lowendforlife]

Rather than addressing each of your (valid) questions individually, I figure I'll just share my general opinion on the subject and hope that I cover something of merit to you.

I definitely notice the drums when I show up on a gig. I know this is a broad generalization, but to me, a crappy drum kit (i.e. CB, or Groove Percussion, lower end Pearl, etc.) implies that the drummer isn't as serious about his craft as he could be There are most definitely exceptions to this, and I completely understand that not everyone is financially able to buy their dream kit, but I think you see my point. Usually, for small group jazz, the typical kit I see is a 4 piece (bass drum, rack tom, floor tom, snare) with a hi-hat and two rides (maybe one crash in addition to that depending on the player). I prefer a higher drum tuning for this format, but that's just me.

To be completely honest, I'm much more picky about cymbals (particularly rides). A really washy, low-pitched ride cymbal can totally clash with a bassistm especially if both musicians aren't listening 110%. I prefer a dry, light yet defined ride sound (ideal cymbal: Zildjian K Custom Special Dry Ride, or Dry Light Ride). Be careful with cymbals with rivets, too...When used in excess, they can sometimes get a bit annoying.

Hope I've been of some help.
-Billy

[Sam Sherry]

When you show up to play with a new drummer, do you notice the drums?
Hopefully not. They only stand out if they're unusual.

Does the configuration (number and sizes of drums and cymbals) of his set imply anything to you about his playing?
Yeah. Big kits create an expectation of small ears.

Is the drums' tuning important?
Particular tunings are not. Tuning the drums to achieve a musical sound rather than a dull thud is good.

Does the tuning of the drums have any affect on your own playing? No.

Does it impact on the sound of the group?Only if something's really weird.

When playing, what part of the set do you listen to most? Cymbals

Least? Bass drum

Is there any part of your drummers' kits that you wish they'd get rid of?
Bass drum pedals. Generally, bass drums should be seen and not heard.

Any part you wish they'd use more?
Gee, I thought you'd never ask. THEIR EARS.

I look forward to reading your responses.
One of my favorite experiences was playing with a guy who used a snare drum and two folding chairs -- one to sit and one to hit. He swung all night. As with everything else, IT'S THE EAR, NOT THE GEAR.

[Kam]

I don't really notice the brand of kit or the setup for the most part. I am more interested in the playing, a good drummer can and will make their kit sound fit the music. I've seen guys with expensive DW rackmount kits who can barely play, and I've seen guys playing an old beat up kit who were amazing. I don't think gear is an indication of commitment or skill. An expensive drum set won't make someone a great drummer, and the opposite is also true.

I'm not sure about optimum configurations for different styles. I think it's up to the drummer to decide what fits and how much he wants to haul.

Tuning can be good, it can also be bad. I think the most important thing is to get the kit in tune with itself...though I have no idea how to go about doing that. I can say that really tight snare drums typically turn me off, but they can work in some situations.

If I had to pick one part of the kit to listen to, it would be the ride/hat for swing and the bass drum for almost anything else.

I would never neccesarily want a drummer to get rid of something in their kit. I can say that there are always abuses and overuses by young or amatuer drummers. Chinas in rock/metal situations, cowbell in rock situations. It's really no different than slab players who slap too much or guitarists who don't "breathe" in their solos.

I think it boils down to musicianship, not gear.


Edit: This reminds me of a Dennis Chambers seminar/masterclass I attended at a local music store. He played a little bit first and then opened up the floor to questions. Most of them were along of the lines of "What kind of *insert drum, cymbal, or kit component here* do you use?" I think marketing and corporate sponsorships in the gear world have resulted in people caring more about getting the gear of their favorite players than actually practicing and striving to be at the level of their favorite players (a little captain obvious detective work there). I want to play solos like Brian Bromberg, I'd better order his Wood bass right away!

[tZer]

Let me start by saying for me (the bass player) the most important musician in a band (rock/pop/world/jam/fusion) is the drummer.

Originally Posted by gretschman

When you show up to play with a new drummer, do you notice the drums?

Yep. Especially if the drummer really seems to be into his gear. To me, that shows dedication and commitment. Now I really don't want spend the entire rehearsal listening to hardware or head-choice discussions, but you can tell when a drummer cares about his craft.

Originally Posted by gretschman

Does the configuration (number and sizes of drums and cymbals) of his set imply anything to you about his playing?

Sure (I am assuming the drummer in question has his general chops together for this answer).
1. A nice minimal set-up (4-piece with a couple of cymbals) says to me that this guy probably gets a lot of milage out of a little set using really cool rudiments and tasty use of space and time. Drummer type = 'smart, musical, savvy'
2. A Neil Peartean monster kit implies this guy is probably gonna overplay, play way too loud, and demand far too much attention. Drummer type = 'Thinks a great drum part is defined by how many drums he can hit in every fill - and insists on filling often' - ok, that's harsh and probably unfair... but I am not into monster kits...
3. A hybrid kit (mix of percussion pieces like timbales, congas, bongos, etc. and standard kit pieces) implies an interesting 'worldly' perspective on his part. In a rock-ish band that setup would lead me to believe we are going to find our way into some Santana-ish or Rusted Root-ish spaces. Drummer type = open-minded and experimental. Interested in more then just a drum part.

Originally Posted by gretschman

Is there an optimum configuration for small group jazz? How about big band? Fusion?

I am sure there is, but I have been away from big-band and combo jazz for so long I don't think I have a valid opinion here. But that has never stopped me before! I think probably a fairly small, understated kit with really good cymbals and a few tom toms would be best. The cymbals would probably be the most important pieces.

Originally Posted by gretschman

Is the drums' tuning important? Does the tuning of the drums have any affect on your own playing? Does it impact on the sound of the group? If so, what sort of tuning do you like to hear? In your opinion, how well do the drummers you play with tune their drums?

Like any instrument, I think the drums should be in tune. Now I don't think it has as much impact on the overall sound of the band - but I am sure some purists out there would say they can hear when the drums are out of tune even a little. I can't tell unless they are completely outta whack.

Originally Posted by gretschman

When playing, what part of the set do you listen to most? Least? Is there any part of your drummers' kits that you wish they'd get rid of? Any part you wish they'd use more?

I play rock and jam-fusion. In my rock band I key in on the standard heartbeat of the kit - kick/snare/hi-hat pattern.

In the jam-fusion band it depends on the flavor of the moment. If the drummer has opted for a driving, rock-ish beat, then see the above answer. Othewise some of the beat choices have gone from really jazzy - where I will be living in cymbal-land; to really 'worldy' or 'percussion driven' where I will listen for the components or patterns that are defining his beat motif and key off of that.

Originally Posted by gretschman

Thanks for reading this far, and for considering these questions. I look forward to reading your responses.

Any time!

[hdiddy]

Beyond what the other cats have already said, I also look at the size and number of bass drums. IMO, one is more than enough. The smaller the bass drum, the more likely he's a jazz drummer. I like the sound of the smaller bass drums too, the sound doesn't clash with the bass so much.

[Ed Fuqua]

What Sam said.

The over riding sense behind your question seems to be the effect EQUIPMENT has on the music. When you're looking for somebody to build you a house, you should probably spend more time looking at things they've built than how shiny their hammer is.

When I walk into a gig with a drummer i've never worked with before, I rarely even look at the kit (unless, as Sam says, there's something weird going on). I do tend to LISTEN to what sound they get out of it.

And for better or worse, the one "first impression" indicator I have for whether or not a drummer is gonna be a guy who listens or not is whther or not they leave the snare ON if they aren't behind the kit. Almost without fail, the guy who isn't aware of the incessant rattling of the snares (by leaving it on) isn't aware of much more musical sounds....

[Anonymous75966]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

One of my favorite experiences was playing with a guy who used a snare drum and two folding chairs -- one to sit and one to hit. He swung all night. As with everything else, IT'S THE EAR, NOT THE GEAR.

Absolutely right. Han Bennink sounds better playing a chair than a lot of drummers will ever get playing a kit. But then he's infamous for getting up from the drums and playing random junk, sometimes for a whole show. (Chairs ... pizza boxes ... music stands ... the floor ... etc.)

The drummers I really click with all seem to play small or eccentric setups - 4-piece, two cymbals, or smaller (!). I played with one guy in a pretty wild 10-piece free-improv band who played 3 pieces from a crappy Pearl travel kit (bass, snare, 1 rack), 1 light ride cymbal, and a hi-hat ... which he carried to the gig on his moped. Did he get a lot of mileage out of that kit? Did he ever, _and_ he was hella loud.

The brand name just doesn't matter. I've played with a few really good jazz drummers who play the Generic Japanese 1960's Kit - you know the one I mean - and get a great sound. Tuning and stick control will make any kit sound good. I prefer a dark ride cymbal to a peaky one, but it really depends what the player does with it.

I personally don't understand how you can listen to one part of the kit in isolation. Sure, for jazz, I'll listen to the ride for the basic pulse - but listening to how the drummer comps with the hi-hat and snare gives you the complete picture of how they feel the time, how they push it (or not), how they phrase, where they place dynamic or agogic accents, blah blah blah. And then if the drummer comps just as much with the bass and toms, you're back to listening to the whole kit.

Anyone listen to Atomic? Paal Nilssen-Love is one of my favourite jazz drummers at the moment - really busy and aggressive but completely musical, and he swings like a mofo.

[Anonymous75966]

Any part of the kit I wish drummers would use more?

In honour of tomorrow's auspicious date, I'd like to say that I want double kick to be used in every genre of music.

www.nationaldayofslayer.org

NB - Loud splash music - not worksafe. (surprise)

[barthanatos]

Originally Posted by gretschman

I've often had discussions with other drummers about various drum choices, but only rarely with non-drummers. I'm interested in what other players think about drums, or if they even consider the drums at all. So.....

I have some experience with the drums, but still consider myself primarily a bass player.

When you show up to play with a new drummer, do you notice the drums?

Absolutely. I notice everything about them, brand, heads, pedals, sticks, size, number, etc. Huge Gretsch fan, and I'm familiar with most of the custom builders.

Does the configuration (number and sizes of drums and cymbals) of his set imply anything to you about his playing?

Actually, the smaller it is, the better I expect him to be. I let my ear decide, however. "Tastefulness" is key. The drummer is, of course, more important than the drums. As with any instrument, the quality of his gear reflects the seriousness with which he approaches things.

Is there an optimum configuration for small group jazz? How about big band? Fusion?

The drummer should have everything he needs to do what will most benefit the song. If that involves a Dream Theater-esque kit, so be it. But that had better be one hell of a song.

Is the drums' tuning important?
Does the tuning of the drums have any affect on your own playing?
Does it impact on the sound of the group?
If so, what sort of tuning do you like to hear?
In your opinion, how well do the drummers you play with tune their drums?

Yes.
Some. The drummer I play with most is on an electric kit (it's a church gig), and so really he can change the way he sounds dramatically from one song to the next - he can have any sound from a regular rock kit, to tympanis, to something that sounds like it came from India. I fit my playing and tone into what is appropriate for the song. If my drummer is using a sound that strongly affects the "feel" of the song, I will certainly take that into account when deciding what to play.
Yes.
It depends on the song.
I know enough about drums that if the drummer doesn't ensure their tuning is up to snuff, I will. I have a drum dial drum tuner, even, to measure the tympanic pressure of the drum head, so consistency is very easy to obtain. If the drummer is not good at tuning his drums, I surely don't mind helping. If he shows an unwillingness to become proficient at doing so, that would reflect very poorly on him as a musician.

When playing, what part of the set do you listen to most?
Least?
Is there any part of your drummers' kits that you wish they'd get rid of?
Any part you wish they'd use more?

Cymbals, snare are the most important for tone. If I see the guy using K Zildjians, Paiste Signature series, Bosphorous or some other top of the line cymbal, that will please me greatly. Likewise if he has a Dunnett snare, or something along those lines (Stanbridge, Spirit, etc.).
Whatever sounds most like a metronome. I want my playing to be in time, and that's my point of reference.
I think drummers overuse the hi-hat compared to the ride at times.
The ride.

Thanks for reading this far, and for considering these questions. I look forward to reading your responses.

Sure. Great questions. It's nice to see a drummer with your level of interest.

[godoze]

I only notice if they have big kits,which is usually a train wreckwaiting to happen ... or really small kits which usually means i'm in for something good...

[Marc Piane]

I fear anything larger than a 20" bass drum when I'm playing DB. Nightmares, cold sweats, etc.

[Aaron Saunders]

When you show up to play with a new drummer, do you notice the drums?
Always. I have a bad habit I carried over from when I was strictly a slab player in that I'm a total gearhead, so I always notice everyone's gear -- whether I've ever played the instrument or not.

Does the configuration (number and sizes of drums and cymbals) of his set imply anything to you about his playing?
Yep. Size of the drums and kit are usually what I notice the most, visually and sound-wise. I tend to expect more from someone who has a smaller kit, because I've known a lot of drummers who hide behind gigantor, Pert-like setups. I really like a small bass drum.

Is there an optimum configuration for small group jazz? How about big band? Fusion?
With small group jazz, I'd expect more cymbals. To be honest, I like the drummer to have a variety -- a couple rides and a crash or two is nice -- in small-group stuff, whereas in a big band the drummer is filling less space and using less variety of textures, so that's not necessary. In fusion, I like a large kit with smaller, higher-tuned drums.

Is the drums' tuning important?
Does the tuning of the drums have any affect on your own playing?
Does it impact on the sound of the group?
If so, what sort of tuning do you like to hear?
In your opinion, how well do the drummers you play with tune their drums?
Very much so.
Yes.
If people are listening and the drummer knows what they're doing, it'd damn well better.
Kinda mixed on the last one. The drummer in my group plays with a set of Yamaha Stage Custom Advantages...and a 22" bass drum (his toms follow accordingly.) He's a sensitive enough player not to make that a big hassle. It'd be nice to have smaller drums and a higher tuning, but they do sound great and with nice mix of punch and sustain.

When playing, what part of the set do you listen to most?
Least?
Is there any part of your drummers' kits that you wish they'd get rid of?
Any part you wish they'd use more?
If I'm looking for the beat, usually the ride or the hats. IMO, I find it kind of strange to look at a drum kit as a group of instruments, and would rather listen to them as a whole.
In pop/rock/funk/etc., I'll listen to the bass drum a lot. In jazz, though, since the role of the bass drum changes and where in the beat it's laying, I tend not to worry about it at all.
In all honesty, I wish drummers would use the drums more. I hear a LOT of cymbal work all the time, but very little in the way of the toms. Even if it's a small kit with two or three, I'd like to hear more of them.