am i going to need a phase invert on my vb-jr?

[surfingbird1]

i'll have a musket, bass octave deluxe, keeley rat, algal bloom in the loop

into a sansamp bddi

will i need a phase invert , i have the barge vb-jr hooked up with the musket and algal bloom already in it, i dont know what to look for

am I supposed to hear phasing, similar to a phaser or is it a drop out in lows, mids, or highs

kind of confused as to what i am supoosed to hear

I did some research and apparently the phase invert is for vintage effects, is that true?

[B.C.]

Originally Posted by surfingbird1

i'll have a musket, bass octave deluxe, keeley rat, algal bloom in the loop

into a sansamp bddi

will i need a phase invert , i have the barge vb-jr hooked up with the musket and algal bloom already in it, i dont know what to look for

am I supposed to hear phasing, similar to a phaser or is it a drop out in lows, mids, or highs

kind of confused as to what i am supoosed to hear

I did some research and apparently the phase invert is for vintage effects, is that true?

This isn't exactly the case. Yes, classic effects use phase shifting to create their sounds(phasers, etc.) but this isn't the same idea.

I'm not exactly sure how the VB-Jr works, but my guess is that you won't need a phase invert. Typically, these things will either be in phase or completely out, in which case you will hear nothing.

I hope this helps.

[dannster]

Are you asking what the VB-Jr does?
It's a clean blend. you can mix your original signal into your loop of pedals basically. You can use it a few different ways but it isn't a phaser?!?
http://www.bargeconcepts.com/vbjr.html
If you're asking something else... I dunno.

[surfingbird1]

no i understand it isnt a phaser

i am wondering what a blended signal out of phase sounds like, does it sound like a phaser, was the question .

I am asking if my pedals, the ones listed, will need to be inverted.

thanks for the quick responses though and the help

[bongomania]

As far as whether the specific pedals named will need it, the actual answer is that you won't know until you hear it. What happens when two close/similar copies of one signal are run in parallel is that some of the waves may resonate (wolf notes) and some may drop out (phase cancellation). This is typically heard as "weak" tone with weak lows. Flipping the phase isn't necessarily a cure, it just moves the waves to a different alignment. Sometimes that makes the problem worse! However sometimes it really does do the trick, eliminating enough wave interference to the point that your tone and your lows come back strong. I use the phase invert on my X-Blender about 50% of the time, which means it was def. worth it for me.

There's no known list of pedals that will benefit from a phase invert when blending.

[Mark Olson]

Well since the clean and effect signals you're blending are not exactly the same, obviously, if they're out of phase with eachother you will NOT get a total cancellation of sound. What can occur is phase cancellation, which will cause a general drop in volume so that with your blend at 50/50 clean and effect your sound won't be as loud as either the clean or effect signal by itself.

More technically certain frequencies would be cut depending on what you're blending together and each signal's phase, so you could lose lows, mids, whatever. But generally it feels like a cut in volume.

Chances are you won't have problems with phase cancellation with most pedals in a blend loop, but you never really know which effects might have problems with phase cancellation in a blend loop, so it's a very useful feature to have just in case.

Also, regarding phase cancellation being a problem with vintage pedals, phase cancellation issues when blending are more common with vintage design pedals, that much is definitely true in my experience.

[Bofee]

I use a VB-Jr sometimes and the only pedal that I've found I need the phase invertion for is my Electronix Messdrive +. It's fairly obvious when you throw the phase switch back and forth, mostly in the low frequencies.

[surfingbird1]

thx mark

i think i might be going into the clean/dirty route into a two channel power amp


my love of fuzz and octave has my signal pathology strained, I am not sure the best route

[Mark Olson]

Just so you know, if your clean and effected signals are out of phase and you're going to experience phase cancellation, it can happen wherever the signals get combined, even if it's acoustically. A blender with a phase reversal switch would probably be the easiest solution I can think of.

Oh, and if you're going to be delving into fuzz and octave effects, those are some of the most common offenders for phase cancellation with blended tones.

[dannster]

Originally Posted by surfingbird1

no i understand it isnt a phaser i am wondering what a blended signal out of phase sounds like, does it sound like a phaser, was the question . I am asking if my pedals, the ones listed, will need to be inverted. thanks for the quick responses though and the help

Ah, gotcha...

[chicago_mike]

many germanium based fuzzes, some wahs, the mxr envelope filter, and her clones.

there reall should be a list of effects that switch the input phase / output phase relationship

[surfingbird1]

would an eq in the loop to give it a different wave form help at all

thx mark i was thinking that about the clean/ dirty too, but was hoping it could be easier to combat it, when i engage an effect the original signal cant leave, it is pretty important

well i need to get a phase inverter, is building one easy, to put in my barge, or should i just get a new one

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by chicago_mike

many germanium based fuzzes, some wahs, the mxr envelope filter, and her clones.

there reall should be a list of effects that switch the input phase / output phase relationship

Unfortunately an inverting opamp isn't necessarily the cause of phase cancellation.

[Nightlyraider]

Closest thing to "hearing" the phasing sounds that you want to know about can be found in slightly out of tune notes being held together I think.

The warbling sound back and forth between pitches is the actual difference in frequency, in a clearly perceptible (and easily created) example, with each rise and fall you actually hear occurring where the sinusoidal waves are meeting up.

[Mark Olson]

The problem with blending clean and effected signals isn't that they're out of tune with one another unless you're blending in some kind of pitch shifter or vibrato. It's that their waveforms have a different phase.

Think of a sine wave. Turn it upside down, and add it to the original sine wave. The result is no sound. That's the problem. But the clean and effected signals aren't exactly the same waveform, so you don't get a total cancellation of sound, but you could be losing a lot of a lot of frequencies.

An EQ can boost some frequencies that might be getting cut assuming they're still at all present in your signal, but an EQ alone won't do anything to take care of the basic problem that your clean and effected signals are out of phase.

[B.C.]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Unfortunately an inverting opamp isn't necessarily the cause of phase cancellation.

+1