Analogman Sun Face with High Gain NKT275 Transistors

[Mark Olson]

Well I don't find much information about the Fuzz Face here and much less on the Analogman Sun Face so I thought I'd just share a few things that might be useful for anyone doing a search on those subjects in the future.

Fuzz Faces are really finicky circuits despite being so simple. There's tons of info about the sounds of different transistors on analogman.com if you're curious, but suffice it to say you can't just throw anything into a fuzz face circuit and expect it to sound good. You also get different tones depending on how the transistors are biased. Analogman is kind enough to include a bias trim pot to alter the bias if you wish, and he also offers the bias control as an external knob called the "sun dial". This is useful especially for the germanium transistored Sun Faces that may act differently at different temperatures. Silicon Fuzz Faces are supposedly less finicky about temperatures.

It's important what you plug into a Fuzz Face and what you plug it into, moreso than with other pedals. Bass players keep in mind, the Fuzz Face circuit originated in the 60's, and would therefore have been designed to work optimally with the kind of gear that was around in the 60's, passive guitars and tube amps. A lot of overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedals are designed to work optimally with passive guitars and tube amps, and therefore may not sound their best with your hi fi solid state rigs with horned cabinets and active basses.

Like Analogman says, "A fuzz face is not an easy pedal to get a great sound out of! If you have a Cort guitar and a Crate amp, don't expect to sound like Jimi with a fuzzface. You will have to have an excellent guitar and amp, have played for at least several years, and used some other fuzz pedals to appreciate the sound and feel of our Sun Face or modified Fuzz Faces."

Fuzz Faces are also very finicky about buffers. Don't just drop one into your signal chain without trying it without a buffer in front of it first. Remember active basses have buffers in them, and this will greatly alter the tone you will get out of a Fuzz Face or a lot of fuzzes for that matter.

Also a note on how to properly use a Fuzz Face. I find the best way to use a Fuzz Face is to crank the fuzz and control the amount of gain with your guitar's volume knob (Fuzz Faces "clean up" at lower input volumes). If you can't be bothered with that Analogman includes an internal trim pot for pre-fuzz volume that can act the same as a guitar's volume knob. The external master volume can then be brought up to reach unity gain. Doing that the sound doesn't muddy up as it does when you simply roll the fuzz knob down, which it does quite a bit.

So why go through all this trouble when there's much easier pedals to use out there? Tone, sweet creamy tone! Besides the fact that the Analogman Sun Faces are the BEST sounding Fuzz Faces I've heard, the internal volume trim pot was a big selling point for me on the Sun Face. In fact I considered building my own Fuzz Face with a pre-fuzz volume control before I read Analogman includes that in the Sun Face.

The tone on the particular Sun Face that I'm messing with now, which has high gain NKT275 transistors, is creamy without being too dark, with just the right balance of bottom and bite for a bass fuzz. It also has that particular tonal color I really like. The sustain is beautiful and natural. Very natural sounding fuzz. Because the transistors are high gain transistors, the pedal doesn't clean up completely, but rolling back my volume knob gives a really cool distortion sound. You could guess by the fact that rolling back the volume knob gives you less gain that the pedal is pretty touch sensitive. Putting a buffer in front of the pedal changes it's tone dramatically. Suddenly it's very un-natural sounding, kind of snarly, spitty, and compressed sounding - a lot less like a distorted amp and more like a transistorized fuzz. Doesn't sound as good this way when you roll back the volume on your guitar.

I could eventually record some soundclips if anyone was interested, but I suspect some of you won't see much of a difference between them and samples I've done recently for the Box of Rock, Dunlop Hendrix Fuzz, and the Frantone Lo Tone Classic Fuzz. One thing I try to accomplish as a musician is to be able to get "my tone" through various different gear. I use an overdrive for the fancy playing, and the fuzz for when I want a sustained sound, but either way I want it to be "my tone"... you get the idea. Anyway I'm expecting a Silicon BC108 Sun Face, perhaps within the next week, so I'll try to compare.

EDIT: OK, I did some really quick low quality (laptop microphone) soundclips just to give you some idea of the sounds I'm getting. My amplifier and pedal are at a low volume, but you can imagine through a cranked amplifier the sound is huge.

First is with a Gibson SG Bass, bridge pickup solo'd at max volume, fuzz cranked:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace1

Next I roll back the volume on my guitar a bit to get a distortion tone. Still just bridge pickup:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace2

And with bridge pickup full and some neck pickup added for a little bit bigger tone:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace3

And lastly I put a buffer before the Sun Face. You may be able to tell that the tone gets squished and is a lot more transistor-y:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace4

Still could be a usable tone but I think in a lot of cases undesirable.

[nad]

Great read, cheers.

The more I learn about effects, the less I know about fuzz. It truly is a wild beast.

[Mark Olson]

It is!

I should also mention that even though the pedal I've been playing through has high gain transistors, it doesn't have enough fuzz to satisfy the real gain freaks. It has all the gain you could want for say, a classic rock fuzzed guitar solo. It doesn't get as saturated as say, a modern Big Muff.

[bongomania]

Just for clarity, gain =/= distortion. Gain just means "signal turned up by some amount". Gain can be used to cause distortion, and that's why the "gain" control on a dirt pedal or distortion-prone amp will increase distortion- the next stage after the gain is what gets distorted by the increased level of signal going into it.

Keen has some very good Fuzz Face info here:
http://www.geofex.com/Article_Folder...ace/fffram.htm

[Mark Olson]

Thanks for the info! Just something I thought I'd point out about the AC128's mentioned. Here's what Analogman has to say about them:

"You will read on some websites that some original fuzzface pedals used an AC128 transistor. However, I and all my fuzzface guru friends have never seen these in an original fuzzface from the 1960s, and we have seen literally hundreds of them. The AC128 was however found in the grey reissues made in recent years. The AC-128s we pulled out of these reissue fuzzes sound horrible. We also tried all the AC-128s versions available on ebay and from suppliers all over the world but none sounded good. We really hoped we could find an alternate transistor (as we are getting low on the NKTs) but we could not use any of the AC-128 transistors so we do not offer them as an option."

I can't say I've bought up a ton of vintage Fuzz Faces to check for myself, but definitely something worth considering.

[Mark Olson]

And I do apologize to anyone I may have confused with my equivocation! I'll fix it...

[manmountain8]

How does the Sunface sound on Bass. I was planning on getting one when I heard that David Gilmour bought one for his bass player, but then I found the Malekko B:assmaster and have since scratched it from my list. Some people have told me that the Sunface doesn't sound good on bass, but I wonder if they are metalheads that are going for a crazier tone. I am looking for subtler fuzz that retains bottom end well. I know I want the B:assmaster, but should I put the Sunface back on my list? Have you A/B'ed the germanium and silicon versions?

[manmountain8]

"Bass players keep in mind, the Fuzz Face circuit originated in the 60's, and would therefore have been designed to work optimally with the kind of gear that was around in the 60's, passive guitars and tube amps. A lot of overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedals are designed to work optimally with passive guitars and tube amps, and therefore may not sound their best with your hi fi solid state rigs with horned cabinets and active basses."

I play a "79 Peavey T-40 bi-amped through a GK800RB with an SVT 410 HLF and SWR 2x10 cabs with horns off. How do you think a Sunface will sound with this rig?

[bongomania]

Is the T40 passive?

[Mark Olson]

Originally Posted by manmountain8

How does the Sunface sound on Bass. I was planning on getting one when I heard that David Gilmour bought one for his bass player, but then I found the Malekko B:assmaster and have since scratched it from my list. Some people have told me that the Sunface doesn't sound good on bass, but I wonder if they are metalheads that are going for a crazier tone. I am looking for subtler fuzz that retains bottom end well. I know I want the B:assmaster, but should I put the Sunface back on my list? Have you A/B'ed the germanium and silicon versions?

I haven't A/B'ed them yet because like I said I'm still waiting on the silicon Sun Face. Yeah I read Guy Pratt (playing bass for David Gilmour) was using a Silicon Sun Face. I'm getting a sound that is to my liking out of the NKT275 high gain transistored Sun Face, just like I described above. Not everyone is going to get a good sound out of a Sun Face, whether on bass or on guitar, because like I said you need the right gear, but also as with a lot of pedals you have to be able to play a certain way to get a good sound out of it. So yeah, some people will think it sounds like crap on bass. I'm restraining myself from making any broad statements about the bottom retention on the Sun Face until I've had more of a chance to use it, but it seems alright the way it is actually, and as you could expect you could modify the input and output caps for more bass.

If you want a "subtle" fuzz there might be things out there that would be a better bet for you though than a silicon fuzz face, or even a germanium one. Take a good look around and you can find sound clips or videos for things like the Frantone Lo Tone Classic Fuzz, the Music Electronix Messdrive Hybrid + (check out the vintage mode sounds), and MXR El Grande Bass Fuzz (I thought it was cool at a low fuzz setting). I'm sure there's tons of others worth mentioning but I can't think of them right now.

[manmountain8]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Is the T40 passive?

Yes, it is from 1979.

[Mark Olson]

Originally Posted by manmountain8

"Bass players keep in mind, the Fuzz Face circuit originated in the 60's, and would therefore have been designed to work optimally with the kind of gear that was around in the 60's, passive guitars and tube amps. A lot of overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedals are designed to work optimally with passive guitars and tube amps, and therefore may not sound their best with your hi fi solid state rigs with horned cabinets and active basses."

I play a "79 Peavey T-40 bi-amped through a GK800RB with an SVT 410 HLF and SWR 2x10 cabs with horns off. How do you think a Sunface will sound with this rig?

Ok, I can't speak for what Malekko has done with his B:Assmaster circuit, but the original Brassmaster is from back in the day and could potentially have all the same gear compatability issues as a Fuzz Face circuit, so don't think the idea of needing certain gear only applies to the Sun Face, it could apply to a lot of fuzzes and whatnot. It's been awhile since I've owned a brassmaster clone though so I can't really help you with what to expect from one, though.

But to answer your question, I'm not familiar with Peavey gear so I don't know whether that bass is active or passive. Just bear in mind that if you're using active electronics, that has the potential to totally funk up your fuzz tone, and not just with the Sun Face, but a lot of fuzzes. Also as you can expect with such a touch sensitive circuit, the output of your pickups is going to play a big role in the sound you get out of the pedal. The Sun Face sounds way different with my different guitars. Again I'm not familiar with the Peavey T-40, I think I've only played one once before a long time ago, so I can't make you any guarantees as to how the Sun Face is going to react to your pickups.

As for the head, I've done several gigs with GK800RB's, and I don't think it should give you any major problems, but then again when I've played through them I wasn't running fuzzes into them. At any rate I don't think it's an ideal match made in heaven, like a Fuzz Face through a Marshall, but why don't you try the Sun Face with that head and let me know how it sounds? I do like the sound of that head.

And as for the cabs you should be fine with the horns off. The concern there is the Sun Face, or a lot of pedals for that matter, aren't necessarily designed to be run through cabinets with horns and what can happen is you can get some ugly high end fizziness in certain cases. In my experience playing with different horned cabs I've always had that problem, but it never seems to show up until I've broken in the cab a good deal. Turning off the horn of course takes the fizz away.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by manmountain8

Yes, it is from 1979.

Just to be clear, there were active basses in '79. But if it is passive, you are likely to get good results with a Fuzz Face type circuit, even with a non-tube amp, especially if -as you say- you turn the tweeters down.

[Mark Olson]

Well, just as with tube amps, it does depend on the specific solid state amp. For example I've gotten good results with distortions and whatnot through different heads, solid state or tube, by Ampeg, GK, Ashdown, Trace Elliot, and some Peaveys, but not so hot results with SWR's, Carvins, some Peaveys, etc. EBS is kinda ok and Aguilar better than EBS. Some Fenders are alright, and I didn't really like distorting Edens. For the sounds I like, some style amps are voiced better for distorted sounds whereas some just don't sound natural distorted to me.

[bigchiefbc]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Just to be clear, there were active basses in '79. But if it is passive, you are likely to get good results with a Fuzz Face type circuit, even with a non-tube amp, especially if -as you say- you turn the tweeters down.

The T-40 is indeed passive; this is confirmed. About the most complicated tone controls I've ever seen on a passive bass

[manmountain8]

Yes the T-40 is passive. I do want a custom Peavey Cirrus though eventually which is active. I have always hated the sound of the horns in my cabs so they are always off. I am interested in the Frantone Lo Tone Classic Fuzz. I have read some pretty mixed reviews on it but it is indeed a subtle fuzz with good bottom end. I read that it can cut mid presence though which I don't like. I am actually trying to talk my guitar player into buying a Sunface. He has a reissue Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face that keeps crapping out on him. If I can talk him into it then I could could try it with my rig to see how it sounds. Maybe he could just send his in to Analogman to be modded. How would that compare to a Sunface?

[manmountain8]

Originally Posted by bigchiefbc

The T-40 is indeed passive; this is confirmed. About the most complicated tone controls I've ever seen on a passive bass

Yah, it's pretty sweet. I couldn't be happier with it. A 3 way toggle switch's between the two PU's for 3 very different sounds. If you roll the tone knobs past 7 it changes from humbucker to single coil mode (great for getting a Funk tone on the fly). It also has a phase reversal switch that works only when both PU's are on. I never use it though. Judging by the vintage warm tone of the T-40 and gritty edge of the GK I would say that my rig should work fine with a Fuzz pedal.

[Mark Olson]

Originally Posted by manmountain8

Yes the T-40 is passive. I do want a custom Peavey Cirrus though eventually which is active. I have always hated the sound of the horns in my cabs so they are always off. I am interested in the Frantone Lo Tone Classic Fuzz. I have read some pretty mixed reviews on it but it is indeed a subtle fuzz with good bottom end. I read that it can cut mid presence though which I don't like. I am actually trying to talk my guitar player into buying a Sunface. He has a reissue Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face that keeps crapping out on him. If I can talk him into it then I could could try it with my rig to see how it sounds. Maybe he could just send his in to Analogman to be modded. How would that compare to a Sunface?

As far as I understand it if you had Analogman mod the Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face you'd pretty much have a Sun Face in a different box. I don't know if you'll have bias and volume trim pots though if that's an issue for you.

[Mark Olson]

OK, I did some really quick low quality (laptop microphone) soundclips just to give you some idea of the sounds I'm getting. My amplifier and pedal are at a low volume, but you can imagine through a cranked amplifier the sound is huge.

First is with a Gibson SG Bass, bridge pickup solo'd at max volume, fuzz cranked:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace1

Next I roll back the volume on my guitar a bit to get a distortion tone. Still just bridge pickup:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace2

And with bridge pickup full and some neck pickup added for a little bit bigger tone:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace3

And lastly I put a buffer before the Sun Face. You may be able to tell that the tone gets squished and is a lot more transistor-y:

http://media.putfile.com/SunFace4

Still could be a usable tone but I think in a lot of cases undesirable.

[Mark Olson]

I completely forgot to mention, the Fuzz Face is also supposedly finicky about what kind of battery you put in it. Supposedly it sounds better with an old style battery (the kind you'll find at dollar stores). Here is a soundclip from analogman with different batteries, first a Duracell twice, then the cheap general purpose battery, then the Duracell twice again:

http://www.mikepiera.com/samples/duracell2.mp3

It does change the tone. Don't ask me why, I don't know. And for the record I think my brother put a Panasonic from the dollar store in the Sun Face I'm using.

Oh, and I realize the samples I posted suck hard. I'll try to do some real ones when I get the Silicon Sun Face to compare the two.