Another overdrive/low end loss inquiry? Is it inevitable? (sound clip)

[davecheng]

I don't play much rock at all, but some recent work--i.e., 90s rock/alternative covers--has me looking for a little bit of grit to my sound.

I ended up with a Fulltone Bass-Drive (non-MOSFET).

I've read a lot here about the inevitable low-end loss with overdrive pedals, and varying opinions about "only a little bit of loss" or whatnot.

At last night's rehearsal, I tried it out for the first time, and this is what I got:

http://davecheng.com/stuff/tone_comparison.mp3

The first half is clean vs o/d, the second half is clean vs o/d boost.

You can hear a significant loss of low end when I kick the pedal on. Well, enough to bug me at least.

All of my experience with this bass has been playing with a huge, wide, defined low end in a rnb/funk/gospel/pop mix. To be quite honest, I know nothing of "rock tone"--or in this case, some sort of natural, warm o/d.

Is this mid-emphasis par for the course?

Anything else to try?

The clip was a Roscoe LG (p/u mid-panned) into a LMII/Epifani UL410. (I can't do natural pre-amp overdriven grit.)

My Bass-Drive was set like this:

[stflbn]

The problem with making buying decisions based on others input here is that often what you're experiencing is acceptable or preferred to many. I tried different things and went back to a SparkleDrive twice... now using a combination of Valvedrive and VT-bass for my core tone choices, but both are low overdrive grit/hair.

Sounds lik eyou need an Overdrive with a Blend knob. The SparkleDrive excels at giving OD without low end loss.

[dannybuoy]

I'd go for the BB Preamp. It sounds similar to the Fulltone Bassdrive (both of these and also the Sparkle Drive are all basically tubescreamer clones) but has active bass/treble knobs, so you can give it a serious bass boost if desired.

I've tried using it in a blend loop but it just makes it sound weak in comparison, so I'm not sure I would get on with the Sparkle Drive. It has enough lows that it doesn't have to rely on a blend to bring them back in; I reckon a blend is only good for pedals that either drop lots of lows of severlely mush your sound so that you need to bring back a bit of punch and definition, but I find I don't need to with the BB.

Also, the Digitech Bad Monkey (especially a modded one) sounds very similar for far less money.

[BassJunkie730]

The major diff between rnb tone and grindy rock tone, in the low end at least, is the difference between 60-80hz and 100-200hz respectively.

Which is almost an octave of difference in bass content.

I also think there is a different relationship between the kick and bass in rnb and rock. rnb requires a big solid low end force even in Motown where things get dirtier. But overdriven rock bass creates, in itslowest registers, kind of glue that connects the rhythm guitar and snare to the kick. So it fits more in the middle.

I'd what you are up against is a fundamental, pun intended, difference. even clean blended OD may give you issues.

Just something to consider

[Jared Lash]

It's not inevitable, but most dirt pedals have some degree of low end loss. But don't forget, you're also losing note definition at the same time (by virtue of the clipping) which compounds things. Even with dirt pedals that don't lose low end, I set them a bit above unity for this very reason.

Some ODs that I've had little to no low end loss while using:

BJF Blueberry Bass Overdrive which actually adds low end depending on the tone knob position. An expensive solution and a very dark, thick OD sound, but if you like it's sound there's nothing better IMO.

Xotic BB Bass Preamp. This one will sound a lot like your Bassdrive but in a smaller package with less low end loss.

Badder Bass Monkey. This is the modded version of the Digitech pedal. Smooth and natural OD well suited for bass.

EDIT: This is what I get for typing while eating breakfast. Danny beat me to the punch and suggested two of the same pedals I did. Damn Frosted Flakes and their delicious distractive power.

[bongomania]

I agree with all that's been said so far, and I particularly wanted to highlight this point:

Originally Posted by stflbn

The problem with making buying decisions based on others input here is that often what you're experiencing is acceptable... to many.

I can't tell you how often I've seen people talking up their rigs, whether amps or pedals, as being "perfect, no issues" or having "deep solid low end" or having "smooth, natural tube-like grit" etc. only to find out later that it was only because they had low standards.

Not saying this to offend anyone, nor to put myself above anyone. Just reiterating a big problem with internet advice.

[beebassdude]

the bluebeard is the only dist/fuzz pedal ive ever used that doesnt destroy the lowend. even the $380 wooley mammoth cant keep all the low end.

[scotch]

There's definitely some low-end loss in your clip.

I agree with the posts above & also highly recommend the Xotic BB for the same type of "grit", but without the low end loss (actually, you can boost the lows to an agonizing degree!).

Another point, that I think most people don't consider, involves volume levels. It is pretty clear, from your clips, that you are attempting to preserve 'unity gain' going from your clean sound to dirty sound. I question this practice in a live playing context (studio is a whoooole different ballgame).
a) Switching to a dirty, distorted tone likely indicates a change in the music being played. When your guitardist kicks on the od, he gets louder, right? Presumably an increased intensity in the music is calling for some od- so why not bump up the level in your dirty sound?
b) Overdrive/distortion almost always adds significant midrange content. The combination of added overtones + increased overall midrange perception by our ears = a net loss in lows comparatively. So, if you add mids & maintain unity gain- the lows will suffer most!
c) As mentioned above, clipping can diminish note clarity & initial 'punch'. Again, levels need to be adjusted to compensate.

This is all ime, of course. And there are certainly pedals that perform better than others in respect to even frequency response. However, I think keeping the above points in mind can help you find tones that work best live.

Finding seamless, even tonal changes in a studio context is much trickier. Compression can help (or just be a poor band-aid), but it's taken me years to find the right pedals that I can rely on to provide killer overdrive/distortion/fuzz and still send a tonally balanced signal that will be relatively consistent in a session. For studio, I really like the Xotic BB. The eq points are very well chosen & the gain range and tone works perfectly for me. I also use an EBS Valve Drive with no low end loss and for fuzz use an EH Bass Big Muff.

Live, my Fulltone Mosfet Bass-Drive still gets used, but with the appropriate level compensation not only for the tone, but for the program material (song). I will note that, as former owner of the original Bass-Drive, the newer Bass-Drive models w/ Mosfet and FM modes are vastly superior and easier to dial in. (ime)

Good luck in your tonal adventures!

[gm jack]

As mentioned, it adds a lot of midrange. Therefore, setting to unity means that the low end will be quieter. Set for unity in the low end, and turning on the pedal will just give a bit of a midrange boost to help the OD cut through.

[JMDT]

IME the clean blend OD's do the best job of keeping bass and retaining note attack and defination. The Way Huge Pork Loin does the best job of any of these I've tried. However due to the clean blend they will not have quite the dirt of some other pedals. There's trade offs with every choice.

[pbd]

I recently tried an MXR M80, it has a blend knob and can also act as a DI. The blend was nice because I dial in the amount of hair I wanted on the clean signal instead of trying to limit the amount of drive, I let the drive do what sounded best and then rolled it into the clean signal.

Todd

[tomhanzo]

I have used a hand full of different overdrives and dirt pedals. I keep coming back to my stock bad monkey. It gives a nice tube breakup sound sound. An example would be the tokyo police club song "your english is good".

The english muff'n is also a nice light overdrive, but you do loose some low end.

[karter2000]

It's funny when a discussion about overdrives which don't lose bottom end comes up, the Bad Monkey is always mentioned. I agree that the Monkey is one of the most transparent I've tried (for the money). I currently use a stock one, but I've owned a Humphrey modded, and one modded myself. I've owned tons of overdrives (including three versions of the Fulltone Bassdrive), but the Monkey is the one that's left.

[scotch]

pbd- love your cables, btw!


I've owned or extensively auditioned a pretty long list of od/dist/fuzes (off the top of my head):

Boss ODB-3
EH Big Muff Pi NYC
Way Huge Pork Loin*
Fulltone Bass-Drive
Fulltone Bass-Drive Mosfet (w/ flat mid switch)
Ashdown Bass Drive Plus
EH Bass Big Muff PI*
EBS Valve Drive*
Z-Vex Wooly Mammoth
Z-Vex Box of Rock*
Xotic Bass BB Preamp*
HAO Rust Ride
Bogdan Polish Love*
Mesa V-Twin*
SansAmp BDDI
Bass POD*
POD X3*
Stamps Drive-O-Matic
Digitech Grunge


Of these, I fell that the starred "*" pedals/modelers had the best low-end response relative to unity gain. The others had what I considered to be either unacceptable or unnatural low end response. For instance, the BOSS has low end for days, but sounds very synthetic.

[RickenBoogie]

Interesting list, Scotch. Funny about the Fulltone Bassdrives, as it seems their OCD is better suited for bass than their bass pedals.

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by scotch

pbd- love your cables, btw!


I've owned or extensively auditioned a pretty long list of od/dist/fuzes (off the top of my head):

Boss ODB-3
EH Big Muff Pi NYC
Way Huge Pork Loin*
Fulltone Bass-Drive
Fulltone Bass-Drive Mosfet (w/ flat mid switch)
Ashdown Bass Drive Plus
EH Bass Big Muff PI*
EBS Valve Drive*
Z-Vex Wooly Mammoth
Z-Vex Box of Rock*
Xotic Bass BB Preamp*
HAO Rust Ride
Bogdan Polish Love*
Mesa V-Twin*
SansAmp BDDI
Bass POD*
POD X3*
Stamps Drive-O-Matic
Digitech Grunge


Of these, I fell that the starred "*" pedals/modelers had the best low-end response relative to unity gain. The others had what I considered to be either unacceptable or unnatural low end response. For instance, the BOSS has low end for days, but sounds very synthetic.

howd you like the box of rock? i really wanted to give one a whirl on bass, but wasent able to find anything about it on TB

[scotch]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

Interesting list, Scotch. Funny about the Fulltone Bassdrives, as it seems their OCD is better suited for bass than their bass pedals.

Don't get me wrong- the Bass-Drive Mosfet works great for bass! It's a versatile tone machine. I believe that the points I made above govern it's usage, however. I believe that a lot of jazz/r&b leaning players (or living room warriors) try to incorporate od into their setup without consideration of dynamic levels. As a result, I think you often see threads with references such as "..sounds different in a band context...". I believe that many of these od pedals (like the Fulltone range) are designed from a guitarists perspective where they expect a louder signal from their 'dirty' tone.

I highlighted my list for players looking for a pedal that can deliver a more positive unity-gain experience.

[dannybuoy]

Originally Posted by groooooove

howd you like the box of rock? i really wanted to give one a whirl on bass, but wasent able to find anything about it on TB

Mark Olson has some clips in a thread around here dedicated to it - but he usually plays his bass like a low tuned guitar anyway so the clips might not be the kind of sound you're looking for!

Z. Vex Box of Rock SOUNDCLIPS
Z. Vex Box of Rock SOUNDCLIPS PART 2 SG Bass

Most of the clips are now dead Putfile links though, but they should be on Soundclick.

[scotch]

Originally Posted by groooooove

howd you like the box of rock? i really wanted to give one a whirl on bass, but wasent able to find anything about it on TB

It sounds great. Very natural. Works great on bass! Honestly, though- the only thing it has over the Bass-Drive Mosfet is better response at unity gain, which I don't find necessary (or even desirable) in every situation.

[Jared Lash]

Originally Posted by scotch

It sounds great. Very natural. Works great on bass! Honestly, though- the only thing it has over the Bass-Drive Mosfet is better response at unity gain, which I don't find necessary (or even desirable) in every situation.

Even if it's just a slight increase, there are some pedals that I think always benefit from being above unity when engaged, even if they don't lose low end. Dirt and tremolo are the two biggies.

Overdrive can be at unity depending on the amount of clipping, but to me fuzz should always be boosted a fair amount to compensate for the loss of note definition.