Arco Upright Sound?

mlbarlow · #1 12-31-2008, 07:25 AM

Okay, so the only threads I've seen regarding "making my electric sound like an upright" have dealt with a plucked style, as opposed to bowed. Here's my deal, I'm a hack on upright, and am playing in Beauty and the Beast in a couple of months. I've got a 5 fretless that should be fairly convincing for pizz stuff, but the acro sections are tough to wrap my head around. I thought about playing bass trombone or tuba for those parts, but would prefer to do the whole thing on my bass ... any ideas as to what effects I could use to get maximum sustain and resonance?

**bassman314** · #2 12-31-2008, 07:37 AM

you really can't... I've tried.

a synth pedal like the EHX Bassmicrosynth can kinda do it, but not convincingly.

maybe get a bow and goof around?

TL5 · #3 12-31-2008, 07:40 AM

I've never tried this but my first thought was use an e-bow (wiki link)

mlbarlow · #4 12-31-2008, 08:27 AM

That was actually my first thought, too, but listening to clips on youtube, it seems like you really can't do anything with attack and dynamics ... it's more for an ethereal sort of sound, methinks. The ebow would be worthwhile if you could do something like a true sfz on it!

mlbarlow · #5 12-31-2008, 08:29 AM

Would some sort of compression work well to sustain the tone? And along the lines of the ehx idea, maybe some very slight fuzz (as ridiculous as that sounds)?

headonastick · #6 12-31-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlbarlow

Okay, so the only threads I've seen regarding "making my electric sound like an upright" have dealt with a plucked style, as opposed to bowed. Here's my deal, I'm a hack on upright, and am playing in Beauty and the Beast in a couple of months. I've got a 5 fretless that should be fairly convincing for pizz stuff, but the acro sections are tough to wrap my head around. I thought about playing bass trombone or tuba for those parts, but would prefer to do the whole thing on my bass ... any ideas as to what effects I could use to get maximum sustain and resonance?

Is this a paid gig? If so I'd speak to the MD before bringing in tuba/bass trombone. I did a show recently on upright, but my bowing technique is so god-awful that I had the same thought as you and played it on tuba (the MD didn't want electric bass at all). It worked very well for the show I was doing (Oliver!), but that was partly due to the style of the writing, and the fact that there's a song called "Oom-pah-pah" in it! I discussed it with the MD beforehand and he ended up loving it, but I wouldn't recommend just turning up with a different instrument if this is a paid thing.

You might be able to pull it off with just the fretless depending on the part. If it's a reasonably busy part you could get away with just distinguishing between a damped pizz-ish effect and a more singing tone for the arco stuff. If there are a lot of sustained notes (especially if a note is held for more than one bar) then I'd probably go with the tuba option if you're chops are good. Be very wary if this is a small production – it is very easy to overpower the singers on stage with a tuba. If the part is written for upright then a tuba tone will cary more prominently unless you really keep it under control. If you're going to be playing "Tale as Old as Time" on the tuba then your quiet playing better be up to snuff!

mlbarlow · #7 12-31-2008, 08:42 AM

thanks headonastick -

yeah, it's a modestly paid gig, and the MD pretty much is giving me freedom to do whatever. i tried the part on upright, but I just don't have the time to devote to it. the MD like the idea of bass tbone (which is actually what I have my degree it, may as well put it to use), but if I can get away with an arco sound (at least enough to blend in with the pit) on the fretless, i'd probably go that route. i imagine that you're right that the brass would sound better, though

headonastick · #8 12-31-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlbarlow

thanks headonastick -

yeah, it's a modestly paid gig, and the MD pretty much is giving me freedom to do whatever. i tried the part on upright, but I just don't have the time to devote to it. the MD like the idea of bass tbone (which is actually what I have my degree it, may as well put it to use), but if I can get away with an arco sound (at least enough to blend in with the pit) on the fretless, i'd probably go that route. i imagine that you're right that the brass would sound better, though

I wouldn't recommend bass trombone particularly, although I'm sure it would work to an extent. No matter how good your low register is it will never be as fat a sound as upright or tuba, and if you're playing pedals the tone will not be what you're looking for. Remember that double bass music is written an octave above it sounds, and even tuba reads at pitch, so you'd be taking things down an octave. An F just below the stave can be taken down on tuba, or it will sound okay at pitch as well, but on bass trombone you're into a seriously low register if you are trying to replace an upright, and up the octave it won't be juicy enough! I'd say do it all on the fretless, or double fretless and tuba –*only use bass trombone if you really have to. I'm sure it could work, but I just don't think it's optimal if you have the tuba as an option as well.

greenboy · #9 12-31-2008, 08:57 AM

Only the most liberal musical director is going to accept effects as a solution. At the best, they would consider a fretless EQ'd and compressed well and played appropriately as a lesser evil, and if it comes to brass, range issues withstanding, a tuba is by far less brash in tone than a bass trombone, which would to that mindset stick out like a thor sum.

By the time all this gets dealt with one could probably just improve at upright enough to squeak through ; }

mlbarlow · #10 12-31-2008, 09:04 AM

true enough on the getting better at upright thought ... only thing is, I've got a 1 and 3 year old, and my woodshed burnt down roughly three years ago. I think I'll show up to the first rehearsal with just my fretless, perhaps toss in a little compression, and evaluate, what just sounds really out of place. my tuba chops are good enough to handle the acro parts, so i'll talk to the md about the parts where it might fit.

good thoughts, everyone

lunarpollen · #11 12-31-2008, 09:06 AM

For arco-type stuff I use my Digitech Digiverb pedal on a particular setting

I made a quick and dirty demo of the effect for someone a few days ago

http://www.sendspace.com/file/oqdhlj

Calebmundy · #12 12-31-2008, 09:11 AM

In my experience you should just play it on electric and try to use a smooth tone and attack. Depending on the venue, it won't really be noticeable, and even if it's an especially bright sounding place, it won't stand out to anyone but another musician-and even they probably won't notice unless you are using an inappropriately bright "electric" tone.

I've played for a ton of musicals-most of which wouldn't let me bring an upright because of space issues in the pit, and none of which cared if I used electric. It's a noble thought to want to emulate the exact sound of the arco, and I know it can be frustrating when the music calls for a whole note with a crescendo, but it really isn't going to affect the larger show very much. I think you will be better off to work on hitting the style and the feel of what's going on than to try and work out the exact tone.

wiro · #13 12-31-2008, 09:20 AM

Reading all this a memory from a lòòòòòòng time ago comes to mind:
In those days I didn't do upright.

To add endless sustain to a note I pushed the head of the bass firmly against the side of the cab. It all depends on the specific note, the bass and the cab with their own resonances but you could try it. And experiment a bit with volume and eq on different notes.
I must admit it looks wierd to do this on stage but as long as it works: Who cares? Just think of it as part of the show.

Another alternative:
With a loop station you should be able to do the trick: Record the note and play it in an endless loop. The next note you do the same trick. With the Boss RC50 you can do this with your foot. Perhaps the cheaper ones can do it too?

And if you turn the volume up after plucking the string the result could become convincing. Like Jan Akkerman does at 0.50 seconds in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUOstyNQ5J8

Hope you'll find a solution in time.
Good luck.

mlbarlow · #14 12-31-2008, 09:23 AM

wow lunar, a lot of that sounds quite convincing ... i'd like to fool around with my zoom b2.1u to see if I can come up with something similar

Doc Holiday · #15 12-31-2008, 09:27 AM

I like the EBow idea the best. I think if you incorporated a volume pedal with it you could get something close. I saw someone using a fretless and a volume pedal years ago (before I was even playing bass!) and thought to myself, "Wow, that sounds just like a cello!"

TL5 · #16 12-31-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlbarlow

wow lunar, a lot of that sounds quite convincing ... i'd like to fool around with my zoom b2.1u to see if I can come up with something similar

Agreed, that clip was pretty good.

lunarpollen · #17 12-31-2008, 11:27 AM

I'm glad you liked it! Mind you, I recorded that in kind of a hurry and wasn't doing my best to get the best recorded sound... The mikes picked up a lot of acoustic noise from my fingers and pick... And I probably could have made it sound more convincing if I fine-tuned my technique for a little while and re-learned how to get the most natural-sounding acro imitation

Jateca · #18 12-31-2008, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

For arco-type stuff I use my Digitech Digiverb pedal on a particular setting

I made a quick and dirty demo of the effect for someone a few days ago

http://www.sendspace.com/file/oqdhlj

That's quite a lot better sounding than I was expecting, nice discovery man!

mlbarlow · #19 12-31-2008, 11:59 AM

Anyone know if the above can do a similar tone to the one we're speaking of? I see that it has a gated reverb, but I'm not sure if I can match the Digitech. (I am still paying for Xmas gifts, after all ...)

lunarpollen · #20 12-31-2008, 12:42 PM

Judging from the DR600's specs, it should be able to give you the same effect if the Level knob (MIN--MAX) works the same as it does on the Digiverb.

On the Digiverb, at MIN setting, it's just the full dry signal. At MAX, it's just the full effect signal, with no dry. In the middle, it's full dry + full effect.