Bass Muff -Quick question

[Kink Rimson]

I recently used one of these at a gig on a couple of tracks, and it sounded fantastic. What I need to know is if the pedal affects your sound even when disengaged - I ask because I used to own a standard Big Muff, and even when not in use it darkened up my tone considerably.
I didn't get to soundcheck so was not able to check this beforehand.

[RickenBoogie]

I believe all the newer Ehx pedals are true bypass.

[Kink Rimson]

I used one of these at rehearsal tonight and was disappointed to find that, even when disengaged, the pedal did afffect my tone - it seemed to lower the output, the needle on my Ashdown's VU meter was hardly moving and I had to crank the volume much higher than usual.

Surely this isn't true bypass?

[RCCollins]

it really shouldnt affect your level significantly. did you try going straight in for comparison?

[kevteop]

Originally Posted by Kink Rimson

I used one of these at rehearsal tonight and was disappointed to find that, even when disengaged, the pedal did afffect my tone - it seemed to lower the output, the needle on my Ashdown's VU meter was hardly moving and I had to crank the volume much higher than usual.

Surely this isn't true bypass?

Might be because it's true bypass - your signal is having to travel down two cables and through your pedal(s) without getting buffered along the way, so it's getting weaker. Did you notice the treble end of your signal in particular was going missing?

True bypass can be a real pain if you don't have a buffer somewhere in your signal chain.

[12bass]

The Bass Big Muff π is indeed true bypass (I recently repaired one). It shouldn't be affecting your tone at all when bypassed. Could be a cable loading issue, as others have mentioned, or perhaps something else.

[Kink Rimson]

Originally Posted by RCCollins

it really shouldnt affect your level significantly. did you try going straight in for comparison?

I did indeed. Noticable difference.

[RCCollins]

Originally Posted by kevteop

Might be because it's true bypass - your signal is having to travel down two cables and through your pedal(s) without getting buffered along the way, so it's getting weaker. Did you notice the treble end of your signal in particular was going missing?

True bypass can be a real pain if you don't have a buffer somewhere in your signal chain.

This. But i wouldn't expect the level drop to be too drastic!

[scotch]

Originally Posted by Kink Rimson

I did indeed. Noticable difference.

What length of cabling are you using & what else is in the signal chain?

A 'true bypass' pedal in bypass mode shouldn't change your tone unless one of the following is happening:

1) you are using very long cables (anything over 20' from instrument to amp total) and using a passive bass with no buffering

2) you have a lot of tb pedals in line & bypassed (essentially adding up to longer cabling)

3) theres a bad solder joint or other physical anomaly in the pedal

[grygrx]

One of my favorite articles.

http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_ag...ue_bypass.html

"Hey Pete, do you use True Bypass?"

Look out there's a lecture coming:

The "true bypass" function, which is promoted by some, can create dreadful problems with a system that uses many pedals. Take for instance a 15 ft guitar cable linked to ten pedals, each linked by a 2 ft cable, and then onto the amp by a 30 ft cable. If all pedals have "true bypass", and are off, then the total cable length hanging on the guitar output will be 63 ft. This will cause a huge loss of tone and signal level particularly if the guitar is a vintage type with low output and high impedance. The amp volume is then turned up and the treble control increased to compensate for the losses. The inherent background noise now increases by the amount of the gain and treble increase and is usually, in my experience, too bad for serious work. If one of the pedals is now switched on, then it's (hopefully) high input impedance (and usually low output impedance) will buffer all the output cables from the guitar and the signal level will rise due to the removal of some of the load on the pickups (i.e.: 17 ft instead of 63 ft of cable). The treble will rise and the tone and volume will not be as before. If that pedal was say a chorus or delay, devices which are usually unity gain, then your overall signal level and tone will vary each time an effect is added...not a very good idea.

Some pedals have an input impedance which is far from high in real terms; the input impedance of the vast majority of amps is 1 Megohm (one million ohms) and in my experience there are few effects pedals that have the same input impedance. A load on the guitar of less than 1 Megohm will reduce the volume and high frequency content of the pickup signal thus giving rise to complaints that "this pedal looses tone/volume" etc. Many effects I have tested have an input impedance of less than 100 Kilohms (ie: only one tenth of the amp input impedance) and cause serious signal losses in the effects chain.

My system, which I devised in the early 70's, is to feed the guitar into a fixed high impedance load, which is identical to the amp input, and then distribute the signal to the various effects and amps by low impedance buffered feeds. This gives a constant signal level and tonal characteristics, which do not change at all when effects are added. The proof that this works are in the recordings of our clients: Roxy Music; The Police; Queen; Pink Floyd; Bryan Adams; Lou Reed; Dire Straits; Paul McCartney; Sting; Jimmy Page; Judas Priest; Black Sabbath....

So the answer to your question re "true bypass" is no, I do not use this system in my Effects Boards/Racks as it can seriously degrade your sound. All my current effects pedals (excluding Vintage Series) which are derived from our large systems have, as the main input stage, a fiendishly clever pre amp that has the same characteristics as the input of a tube amp (1 Megohm/20pF), a highly efficient filter to eliminate the possibility of radio breakthrough and a low output impedance so that any following pedals/ cables etc. will not impose a load on the guitar signal. This pre amp is fitted to all our large stage systems and has always met with huge approval; not only from the guitarist but also the PA operator who is so happy to have constant level and tone presented to his mixing board. I go further with large systems and provide several inputs, each with the isolating pre amp and a gain compensation pre amp so that many different guitars can be level matched into the system. In addition a 20 segment PPM type display provides visual indication of signal level in our Effects Boards and Rack Systems.

©Pete Cornish 2003

[12bass]

Eschewing true bypass is a good idea IF you have a high quality buffer. Problem is finding one.....

[scotch]

Originally Posted by 12bass

Eschewing true bypass is a good idea IF you have a high quality buffer. Problem is finding one.....

Well.. maybe.

Why does it have to be this or that? In my experience, the best case scenario is where both technologies are employed together in a logical, thought-out way.

-Multiple tb pedals in line with a passive instrument can result in tone loss (in particular, higher frequencies). Agreed.

-Multiple buffers in line with any instrument can result in changed tonal response (think of transistors as "copying" your signal at each buffer stage-a copy of a copy of a copy is generally not preferred). Agreed.

Why not utilize 1 quality buffer at the front (and perhaps the end as well) of your pedal signal chain. Then employ tb pedals (or a loop solution) to reduce the # of buffers in line? I do it & it works great! It's not a "tb vs. buffered" issue - it's learning how to best implement your own setup for maximum signal response and least noise.

[12bass]

Sounds sensible.

[nboyer941]

Originally Posted by kevteop

Might be because it's true bypass - your signal is having to travel down two cables and through your pedal(s) without getting buffered along the way, so it's getting weaker. Did you notice the treble end of your signal in particular was going missing?

True bypass can be a real pain if you don't have a buffer somewhere in your signal chain.

What do you mean buffer?

-sorry for newb question

[Kink Rimson]

Originally Posted by scotch

What length of cabling are you using & what else is in the signal chain?

A 'true bypass' pedal in bypass mode shouldn't change your tone unless one of the following is happening:

1) you are using very long cables (anything over 20' from instrument to amp total) and using a passive bass with no buffering

2) you have a lot of tb pedals in line & bypassed (essentially adding up to longer cabling)

3) theres a bad solder joint or other physical anomaly in the pedal

1)I am using an old Ibanez Roadster, pretty much a P bass copy. As I usually use no pedals, I borrowed a lead for the occasion. It was quite long.

2)No other pedals in use.

3) Pretty sure the pedal is fine.

Like I said before, if I crank the vol and gain a bit it levels out. I think I have my answer, I'll try using a shorter lead and let you know if the problem persists.

[MrTAteMyBalls]

wow...this is confusing. i always thought true bypass was the way to go and literally meant that your signal passed through unchanged. i use a pedal board with about 7 pedals, all are true bypass except the last one(a behringer delay, which does not have a totally clean bypass....although it is pretty decent). I havent plugged in without it in years....maybe i should and see if I can notice the difference.

[scotch]

Originally Posted by MrTAteMyBalls

wow...this is confusing. i always thought true bypass was the way to go and literally meant that your signal passed through unchanged. i use a pedal board with about 7 pedals, all are true bypass except the last one(a behringer delay, which does not have a totally clean bypass....although it is pretty decent). I havent plugged in without it in years....maybe i should and see if I can notice the difference.

Right. If you a/b your clean (all pedals bypassed) sound with just a cable & notice a tonal difference- then you need to look into buffering options. If you don't hear a difference, don't worry about it (unless you do professional session-type work where somebody else might be noticing...).

[scotch]

Mr. Rimson's problem doesn't sound typical. Normally adding 1 tb pedal shouldn't cause such a big difference. However, if we're talking about a 20' cable that he usually uses + another 20' after the pedal - then yes, you're setup for some tone loss without a buffer!

[grygrx]

Originally Posted by MrTAteMyBalls

wow...this is confusing. i always thought true bypass was the way to go and literally meant that your signal passed through unchanged. i use a pedal board with about 7 pedals, all are true bypass except the last one(a behringer delay, which does not have a totally clean bypass....although it is pretty decent). I havent plugged in without it in years....maybe i should and see if I can notice the difference.

Read this

Bypass Methods Pros and Cons:
http://tonfaktor.blogspot.com/2008/0...s-methods.html

[Geddyfleaharris]

Is the Pete Cornish article then advocating for putting a preamp first in line as a booster? Would an active bass preamp perform that function if the answer is yes?

Maybe I am hearing things but there sure seems to be a lot less difference in tone when I take the pedals out when using my Stingray as opposed to my Ric. It seems like the Ric's tone is affected a lot more by the board.