Buyer beware on Ebay

[Kmonk]

Originally Posted by sunbeast

Ebay/Paypal nearly always side with the buyer in my experience. If they refuse to refund your money just open a dispute with Paypal.

My experience has been the exact opposite which is why I no longer use Paypal or ebay.

Several years ago, I bought a 78 Jazz bass that the seller claimed was completely original. When I received it, I found that 2 bridge saddles and all the frets had been replaced. The fret job was so bad that the binding was cracked on both sides of the neck at every fret. The seller refused to take the bass back. I opened a claim with Paypal and ebay. They acknowledged that the claim was open but never did anything. To make matters worse, I was somehow charged twice for the bass. It took 6 months of dealing with my credit card company to get the extra charge reversed. I ended up trading the bass in at GC.

I have much better luck buying online through Amazon, Musician's Friend, GC, etc.

[Darknut]

Originally Posted by Kmonk

My experience has been the exact opposite which is why I no longer use Paypal or ebay.

Several years ago, I bought a 78 Jazz bass that the seller claimed was completely original. When I received it, I found that 2 bridge saddles and all the frets had been replaced. The fret job was so bad that the binding was cracked on both sides of the neck at every fret. The seller refused to take the bass back. I opened a claim with Paypal and ebay. They acknowledged that the claim was open but never did anything. To make matters worse, I was somehow charged twice for the bass. It took 6 months of dealing with my credit card company to get the extra charge reversed. I ended up trading the bass in at GC.

I have much better luck buying online through Amazon, Musician's Friend, GC, etc.

Yeah I would never buy a bass off ebay or anything very expensive.

At least with this Ebay BS I have going now it not much money

[Laurent]

Everytime there is a monopoly there is extreme danger.

Ebay has a quasi-monopoly on online auction style sales.

Paypal is now the largest bank in the world in terms of account holders and the only global bank. All other banks operate within one or several countries but not globally as Paypal. Regular banks have virtually no online payment system competing with Paypal.
Again a monopoly.

Combine the two monopolies together and you have something extremely dangerous.
They have the ability to be judge and jury and operate within a complete legal vacuum.
The fact that they are both your bank and your rating agency worries me, this would not be tolerated in the non-online world. They are both wonderfully efficient systems and companies until something goes wrong….

For all these reasons I have been seriously thinking of curbing my use of both companies. I have contributed to building the monster and the monster could turn against me any time.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by Laurent

Paypal is now the largest bank in the world in terms of account holders and the only global bank. All other banks operate within one or several countries but not globally as Paypal. Regular banks have virtually no online payment system competing with Paypal.
Again a monopoly.

Actually, Paypal has fought against being legally considered a bank.

As for other competition like Amazon, they are no better. Amazon manipulates and lobbies for legislation and regulations to go their way. Internet businesses have a wholesale advantage over tangible establishments and while the brick and mortars in your downtown die, the big conglomerates that exist a million miles away thrive.

[mjac28]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

As for the negatives for sellers, they removed that about 4 years ago and it is a very good thing. The only thing that was good for was retaliatory feedback. Another narcissistic complex of many sellers was to retaliate with negative feedback when it was actually their issue, thereby damaging the buyer out of spite or revenge. Basically, its the equivalent of two sides in a war bombing eachother until they all are dead. Not a good venue for a marketplace.

But now only one side has the bomb at least before a buyer may of thought twice before leaving negative feedback in retaliation for not correctly reading an ad that clearly says as is and in my opinion that is not a healthy balanced marketplace. I enjoy eBay but the site knows full well it's traffic is generated by the buyers not the sellers. I enjoy Talk Bass more because it is a community where your reputation in my opinion is viewed higher and is on par with your reputation in your neighborhood or in your workplace.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by MSUsousaphone

On TB you pay a small yearly fee. On ebay you get the usual paypal rape fees you'd get selling here PLUS the ebay rape fees.

Single penetration for this guy, please.

FYI - Paypal fees are most competitive fees out there.

If you run a business and accept Credit/Debit cards, as a business you are charged a small fee to process those transactions. Discover, Capitalone, banks, etc. charge the merchant that accepts your payment fees. These fees are in excess of what Paypal charges. They are doing the exact same thing. You hear this most from gas stations who will give discounts on gas for cash transactions. It saves them money from being gouged by big card companies.

Every time you use a debit/credit card, you're giving those big card companies money.

If you hate Paypal for what they are doing, make sure to hate yourself for using a credit/debit card.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by mjac28

But now only one side has the bomb at least before a buyer may of thought twice before leaving negative feedback in retaliation for not correctly reading an ad that clearly says as is and in my opinion that is not a healthy balanced marketplace. I enjoy eBay but the site knows full well it's traffic is generated by the buyers not the sellers. I enjoy Talk Bass more because it is a community where your reputation in my opinion is viewed higher and is on par with your reputation in your neighborhood or in your workplace.

Not correct.

The example you give about "as-is" is faulty. I have been selling for 5 years under the policy of "returns accepted" with stipulations according to certain restrictions. If I sell a part that arrives broken or damaged or not working (either to the post's fault or mine) I can't just automatically assume the buyer broke it to get money (which many sellers do). I must ask questions and investigate the situation. Most sellers would rather get defensive or blow the person off. Not a good way to approach a stranger who paid you money. Also, it is common knowledge that Ebay has a "return policy" so there is no reason to sell "as-is". I've had people sell things "as-is" and sell me junk - claiming it worked. If one claims it works and it arrives not working, how could one blow me off? Well, they try to. It's a bit humorous.

Once again, I have done thousands of transactions and had only about 1% give me negatives and probably only about 1/100 items have an issue.

I'm not making comparisons between TB and Ebay; I'm talking strictly about Ebay.

[FaithNoMan]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

Never made assumptions about you or called you out for anything. My post was an overarching generalization.

No need to be defensive. I hope you didn't get defensive against the buyer in the same way. Approaching buyers with respect, politeness, and caution goes a long way. Long distance internet text communication doesn't leave much room for anything less.

Ok, cool then.

I gave all the buyers that I had problems with positive reviews, or just no review at all in the end. I'm always really kind, communicate with the utmost care, and am afraid of losing my 100% positive feedback.

Again, I've not always had great luck selling on Ebay. Selling on TB has always been a breeze, though

[mjac28]

Let's see the buyers can leave negative feedback but the sellers can't? I don't understand why you keep continuing this negative rant against sellers? not once have I or anyone else mentioned being a jerk to the buyer? that wouldn't be very smart since that person has the ability to wreck your 1800 positive reputation and if you have a policy of accepting items that are marked as is you are definitely in the minority and you must not be selling high end merchandise if you are I apologize and if you don't think eBay is a buyer driven website than we can just disagree on that. I love your advanced investigation skills if the parts aren't lying in the box good luck with the Post Office claim and all the inspecting in the world before shipping does nothing if a jerk buyer wants to say it was broken when he got it you will be eating it or risk a dispute or negative feedback. I'm outta here good luck OP with everything sorry for the derail I will just stay here where the water is safer.

[Laurent]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

Actually, Paypal has fought against being legally considered a bank.

As for other competition like Amazon, they are no better. Amazon manipulates and lobbies for legislation and regulations to go their way. Internet businesses have a wholesale advantage over tangible establishments and while the brick and mortars in your downtown die, the big conglomerates that exist a million miles away thrive.

Of course they have fought being considered a bank but this is what they are!

At least Amazon has some competition. There are other places where one can buy books, CD's and many other things on line. That's not really the case with online auctions.

[Laurent]

Originally Posted by mjac28

Let's see the buyers can leave negative feedback but the sellers can't? I don't understand why you keep continuing this negative rant against sellers? not once have I or anyone else mentioned being a jerk to the buyer? that wouldn't be very smart since that person has the ability to wreck your 1800 positive reputation and if you have a policy of accepting items that are marked as is you are definitely in the minority and you must not be selling high end merchandise if you are I apologize and if you don't think eBay is a buyer driven website than we can just disagree on that. I love your advanced investigation skills if the parts aren't lying in the box good luck with the Post Office claim and all the inspecting in the world before shipping does nothing if a jerk buyer wants to say it was broken when he got it you will be eating it or risk a dispute or negative feedback. I'm outta here good luck OP with everything sorry for the derail I will just stay here where the water is safer.

I agree with most of your points. I could have written that myself!

[Laurent]

AND don't get me started on snipping.

I hate the practice, it reeks of greed and not playing it it fairly. Sure technology allows it but it's really murky.

It takes away all the fun and excitment of watching an auction.
Witness a live auction once in your life and you will discover all the drama and tension of trading live bids.

[MSUsousaphone]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

FYI - Paypal fees are most competitive fees out there.

If you run a business and accept Credit/Debit cards, as a business you are charged a small fee to process those transactions. Discover, Capitalone, banks, etc. charge the merchant that accepts your payment fees. These fees are in excess of what Paypal charges. They are doing the exact same thing. You hear this most from gas stations who will give discounts on gas for cash transactions. It saves them money from being gouged by big card companies.

Every time you use a debit/credit card, you're giving those big card companies money.

If you hate Paypal for what they are doing, make sure to hate yourself for using a credit/debit card.

Haha. FNM was right. You DO like to assume a lot.

The wife and I have our own businesses and our own house for over five years now but have never owned credit cards. The businesses and house things would usually be irrelevant but I wanted to add that before you had an entire post about how we're poor college kids or government assisted peeps.

But preach on, brotha. Can't wait to see the next assumption.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by MSUsousaphone

Haha. FNM was right. You DO like to assume a lot.

The wife and I have our own businesses and our own house for over five years now but have never owned credit cards. The businesses and house things would usually be irrelevant but I wanted to add that before you had an entire post about how we're poor college kids or government assisted peeps.

But preach on, brotha. Can't wait to see the next assumption.

No, you assumed I was talking directly to you. I wasn't.

I was talking about the facts. Objective, overarching fact that if one uses a credit OR debit card, they are administering the same method of third party fee collection as Paypal does.

Presumably, you own a business where you do not accept credit or debit cards or you would have experienced these fees.

I was also presenting the fact that Paypal administers a very competitive fee in line with that. All those "Paypal gouges me!" criticisms are not valid; the only thing that is different about Paypal is they are more transparent. Not that I defend them; I don't really like them. But I know that they are no different from anyone else.

I'm not sure what the rest of your post was meant to embody.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by Laurent

Of course they have fought being considered a bank but this is what they are!

At least Amazon has some competition. There are other places where one can buy books, CD's and many other things on line. That's not really the case with online auctions.

I didn't say they weren't.

Most of Ebay presently is no longer auctions - they have been moving towards a "BIN" marketplace for years.

[michael_atw]

Originally Posted by mjac28

Let's see the buyers can leave negative feedback but the sellers can't?

Yep, and it's a good thing. Despite what the naysayers want to think. Retaliatory feedback was severely damaging. Ebay have very strict guidelines for "feedback extortion". It is in response to the lack of seller negative feedback as a protection tool. If someone tries to extort in any way via negative feedback, they will remove it and penalize the buyer. I've had it done to me and I wasn't even extorting. A guy sold me a guitar, I paid for it, and 34 days later he hadn't sent it yet. Yes, 34 days. I told him if he didn't refund me (I didn't want to wait anymore), I would leave negative feedback. He reported me, I called them up to appeal and the Ebay CSR said I "technically" extorted him. They removed his neg and he rubbed it in my face.

Originally Posted by mjac28

I don't understand why you keep continuing this negative rant against sellers? not once have I or anyone else mentioned being a jerk to the buyer?

More defensiveness. Why is everyone so defensive? I never made a "negative rant" about anyone. I am stating the obvious from someone who has tons of experience on the matter. I'm not speaking from someone who sells 10 items a year - I sell thousands of items. If you don't do things right, miscommunication will happen. And yes, there are tons of narcissistic sellers out there. Along with buyers. No unequal, equal amounts. If you are one, shame. If you aren't, you don't need to worry about what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by mjac28

that wouldn't be very smart since that person has the ability to wreck your 1800 positive reputation and if you have a policy of accepting items that are marked as is you are definitely in the minority and you must not be selling high end merchandise if you are I apologize and if you don't think eBay is a buyer driven website than we can just disagree on that. I love your advanced investigation skills if the parts aren't lying in the box good luck with the Post Office claim and all the inspecting in the world before shipping does nothing if a jerk buyer wants to say it was broken when he got it you will be eating it or risk a dispute or negative feedback. I'm outta here good luck OP with everything sorry for the derail I will just stay here where the water is safer.

One person doesn't have the ability to wreck an 1800 positive reputation. They might knock it to 99.9% but negative feedback doesn't drive Ebay these days - low DSRs do. Some buyers who leave negs won't leave DSRs, some buyers who leave positives will leave low DSRs. It takes multiple instances (the number depends on how much one sells) to damage a reputation. I don't agree with Ebay's DSR system by any means but what you said is not factually accurate. Also, none of this is "derailing" the thread. It says "buyer beware on Ebay". Buyers should beware - there are alot of crappy sellers out there. Just as many as crappy buyers.

I actually sell quite a bit of "high end" merchandise.

I'm up to about 7000 buyer and seller transactions on Ebay - have filed only 5 insurance claims with USPS, Fedex, UPS and deal with a handful of scammers as a seller and a bit more as a buyer.

[mjac28]

Originally Posted by michael_atw

More defensiveness. Why is everyone so defensive? I never made a "negative rant" about anyone.

"Most of the stories about bad buyers are inflated or created by crazy Ebay sellers who won't admit when they are wrong"

"Many sellers on Ebay have a narcissistic complex where they are always right"

"Another narcissistic complex of many sellers was to retaliate with negative feedback when it was actually their issue"


"Most sellers would rather get defensive or blow the person off ".



I have to agree with you I guess you weren't being negative to sellers LOL

Originally Posted by michael_atw

If someone tries to extort in any way via negative feedback, they will remove it and penalize the buyer. I've had it done to me and I wasn't even extorting. A guy sold me a guitar, I paid for it, and 34 days later he hadn't sent it yet. Yes, 34 days. I told him if he didn't refund me (I didn't want to wait anymore), I would leave negative feedback. He reported me, I called them up to appeal and the Ebay CSR said I "technically" extorted him. They removed his neg and he rubbed it in my face.

I guess you only wear your fancy negotiation hat when you are a seller maybe you should have been nicer to that crazy eBay seller? and I'm sure if he had met you in person he would be rubbing more than that in your face this has been priceless thank you sir. LOL

[Laurent]

Originally Posted by mjac28;13552442[B

I guess you only wear your fancy negotiation hat when you are a seller maybe you should have been nicer to that crazy eBay seller? and I'm sure if he had met you in person he would be rubbing more than that in your face this has been priceless thank you sir. LOL[/b]

Word.

[FaithNoMan]

Talkbass never fails to disappoint, and I mean that in the most loving way!

[grygrx]

Meh..