Calling all bass synth lovers!

[Happynoj]

I've been thinking about bass synth pedals recently. There isn't really one that fits everyone's needs - the Octavius Squeezer is the current king of the hill, but it is complex and VERY expensive. The Bass Micro Synth is an old favourite, but loses favour because of the lack of presets. The Deep Impact is a highly sought-after classic, but it's sounds aren't to everyone's tastes and it is difficult to get hold of and expensive when you do. The G5 is well liked by the people who have them, but they are even more rare than Deep Impacts. The Bass Synth Wah is cheap, has great tracking and a couple of usable sounds, but a lot of the sounds aren't great. The SYB-3/5 are also cheap, but only have a couple of decent sounds and a lot of same-ey sounds, as well as having poor tracking. 'Modular' synths, built up from Moog LPF-s and gated fuzzes and expression pedals and oscillators and ring mods and all that other stuff are pretty cool because of the flexibility, but you still struggle to get a proper synth sound, and these boards tend to be very expensive and take up a lot of space.

So, I was thinking that the TB effects forum should put together the specs for our perfect (or at least as realistically close to perfect as we can get) bass synth pedal - list features, form factor, sounds, manufacturers, whatever. If we can come up with a general overall consensus, we should email our ideas to a company or (companies) in the hope that they will recognise the fact that we are a bunch of bass players telling them exactly what we want - therefore making the pedal a good seller because we are getting what we asked for.

I realise that realistically it isn't likely that a company will pick up our ideas/designs and actually turn them into a real product, but it can't hurt to try - we won't have lost out on anything if they don't use it, and if they do we will have gained everything.





I will share my thoughts on the matter to get things started.

The first issue that sprang to mind was tracking - no one wants an amazing sounding synth pedal with horrible tracking. This thought led me to Digitech - they have a reputation for producing products with good tracking (see Whammy, Bass Whammy, Bass Synth Wah) and digital synthesis. There were some other factors which I thought were also positive about Digitech. They already have a range (albeit small) of bass guitar products, including a bass synth pedal which has been out for several years now and could probably do with updating. They have previous experience making pedals which store presets - and presets are a massive plus to any synth pedal. They already have pedals in a useful form factor - I figured that at least 2 stomp switches are needed for a good synth pedal, and Digitech has the Jamman (and a couple of other pedals) which have a twin-stomp design, which isn't completely massive. They also have pedals with USB connectivity (Jamman) which is also good for synth pedals. The biggest thing about Digitech is that they are a big, well known company with a wide product distribution - that means that the price of such a pedal would be lower than if a smaller company made it.

All of that up there ^ is just some random thoughts that I had. If anyone has any criticisms of my thinking then I will be glad to listen. (Please note, I am not in any way affiliated with Digitech).

As far as features go - I think that multiple wave forms are needed, as well as an octave down also with multiple wave forms (including clean and a 'sub' mode which would basically be a fixed fat resonant low pass filter) which should be selectable independently from the normal note waveforms - that would mean that you could have a sawtooth wave at the top and a square wave an octave lower, or something similar. While still on the subject of octaves, I would like to see separate outputs for clean, effected and octave down to allow for comprehensive routing options.

Other than waveforms, I think that there should be a gated fuzz (with the option to make it non-gated if you desire) and obviously a filter section. The filter needs to be big and fat and resonant, and should have options for a static filter and oscillating filter, and both up and down sweeps, with a long range available in case you want a massive filter sweep. The cutoff frequency of the normal/static filter and the speed of the oscillating filter should be expression-controllable. That is about as far as I have got feature-wise, but I'm sure that there is other stuff that could be stuffed in there.

I'm not yet sure whether I would want all of it controllable in real time (ie a knob for each parameter), or whether some of it should be controllable in real time but not all (ie knobs to control octave blending, filter cutoff and fuzz gating and then a menu system for other paramters) or whether it should all be menu-based.



If you think that this whole thread is a ridiculous idea, then feel free to say so. Personally, I think that it is a pretty cool idea and that we have nothing to lose by trying it. Let me know your thoughts.

[fightthepower]

Regarding the G5- I hated it, and thought the sound quality was well below the BSW and SYB-3 (and even further below the analog synths ive had).




About your hypothetical pedal-- you didn't mention, but Im assuming that you're interested in a digital bass synth? Whether this pedal will be digital or analog is of great importance, because it will have a ..deep impact on what you'll get as far as sound quality, presets (or lack thereof), tracking, price, etc.

[Happynoj]

Originally Posted by fightthepower

Regarding the G5- I hated it, and thought the sound quality was well below the BSW and SYB-3 (and even further below the analog synths ive had).

That is interesting. A lot of people seem to like it.

Originally Posted by fightthepower

About your hypothetical pedal-- you didn't mention, but Im assuming that you're interested in a digital bass synth? Whether this pedal will be digital or analog is of great importance, because it will have a ..deep impact on what you'll get as far as sound quality, presets (or lack thereof), tracking, price, etc.

Well I was just throwing out some ideas really. Whatever other people think is important as well.

[Hyperfreak]

I've been an owner of the Ibanez SB-7 for years now, and it's actually my most-used pedal. It gets a nice tone out with the auto-wah feature that at first I found a bit out of place, but now use all the time.

The Ibanez construction is amazing. It's built like an indestructable tank, and you can actually click the knobs inward and into the structure of the pedal to keep them both in place and to keep anything from jutting out of the pedal in transit.

My vote is that some features, like decay, should have a coarse adjustment that is simply a switch, with a fine adjustment on the knob. This both creates a greater range of options and simplifies the process of completely and consistently changing the sound of the pedal in an instant.

[Oh! Henry]

Although they don't have much pedal making experience, Markbass is currently working on a bass synth pedal, and may be interested in this type of thread. They seem to have responded to some of our wishes in the past with their new lineup (mute switch) So they may be listening!!!!

You forgot one thing though, It's all fine and dandy having a synth that can do it. I understand it take lots of cash for the R&D, but no matter how well a pedal may sound, a 600$ price tag will make it off limits to the majority of the bass playing population. So I would ad, make it reasonably prriced.

[jufros]

I had been playing funk/rock exclusively for a while and so started to dabble in synth effects, synth pedals, and pedal combinations. Recently, I've started working with an electronica group as well. To get a few good synth sounds, the Bass MicroSynth is probably the best option as far as quality of sounds / price is concerned. That being said, if you really need a wide array of synth textures, you really have to dedicate an entire board to it and think about your sounds from a theoretical and conceptual perspective before you purchase new pedals. You'll find that once you have a good thing going, it becomes much easier to think about board additions creatively.

[Bootzilla]

Maybe a "standard" synth (multiple oscillators, envelope control and a few filters with maybe an LFO) with CV input is what we need. The problem is that it will be very expensive and the tracking wont be perfect.

[Bob C]

This is a great thread. I'll confess I don't have personal experience with most of the above mentioned pedals. I'm more of a fascinated Effects Forum observer.

I know it's about sales and all that, but it is such a shame that the Deep Impact is discontinued. Also, it's a sin that they command such a high price on the used market. Why doesn't some company come out with a DI clone?

Korg G5's are pretty common and affordable on eBay.

About the Octavius Squeezer, I know it's programmability is amzing. But how easy is it to call up presets on the fly in a live setting.?

It seems that some of the Boss and Korg multi-effects units have the right design idea: a matrix, pedals and real-time tweakable knobs. But maybe they don't have the sound we all need (and do have too much other stuff we don't want).

I use a Digitech RP300 at home for some of my guitar work. The sounds range from great to terrible. The tracking is good though. The preset scroll system is less than ideal for live applications. Digitech might indeed be a good place to pitch our suggestions. They have a customer friendly web site, and their stuff is affordable.

[Happynoj]

Originally Posted by Oh! Henry

You forgot one thing though, It's all fine and dandy having a synth that can do it. I understand it take lots of cash for the R&D, but no matter how well a pedal may sound, a 600$ price tag will make it off limits to the majority of the bass playing population. So I would ad, make it reasonably prriced.

Oh, a big, BIG +1 to that.

Originally Posted by jufros

To get a few good synth sounds, the Bass MicroSynth is probably the best option as far as quality of sounds / price is concerned.

No presets though. Not having presets is fine if you only want a couple of different synth sounds, but changing sounds mid gig is a pain, and it is difficult to get exactly the sound you are after quickly.

Originally Posted by Bob C

I know it's about sales and all that, but it is such a shame that the Deep Impact is discontinued. Also, it's a sin that they command such a high price on the used market. Why doesn't some company come out with a DI clone?

The problem with the Deep Impact is that everything is inside a microchip, so without the source code (which I really can't see Akai releasing) it would be almost impossible to clone it.

[jufros]

Use tape unless you need different sounds in the same song. Either way, it's a very good starting point.

[Swimming Bird]

My favorite bass synth pedal is the Copilot FX Orbit. I mean, come on, '80s acid synth sounds. All it needs is a filter sweep section and some more ASDR control and it would be perfect for everyone.

[Jazz Ad]

It cetainly wouldn't be perfect for me. I expect more from a bass synth than farty fuzz tones.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Oh! Henry

Although they don't have much pedal making experience, Markbass is currently working on a bass synth pedal, and may be interested in this type of thread. They seem to have responded to some of our wishes in the past with their new lineup (mute switch) So they may be listening!!!!

You forgot one thing though, It's all fine and dandy having a synth that can do it. I understand it take lots of cash for the R&D, but no matter how well a pedal may sound, a 600$ price tag will make it off limits to the majority of the bass playing population. So I would ad, make it reasonably prriced.

In the end though, there's a reason that a cheap, small, great tracking, easy to use, single pedal synth hasn't been designed that has a great variety of usable sounds.

I don't believe that it's a vast conspiracy among pedal makers, it's realistically that you're going to have to make compromises in order to get the things you want in a pedal, be it price, size, ease of use, tracking, and/or sound(s).

[Jazz Ad]

Another reason being that bass synth pedals have a very limited market. It's a niche at best.
It's much easier and cheaper to go with a keyboard if you want synth tones.

[Happynoj]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Another reason being that bass synth pedals have a very limited market. It's a niche at best.
It's much easier and cheaper to go with a keyboard if you want synth tones.

But becoming less so. You must have noticed the recent explosion of bass synth threads.

[sikamikanico]

it's a niche anyway... maybe it's discussed more here on Talkbass, but you need to sell thousands of units to make it a mass market product (I actually don't know if it's thousands or tens of thousand or even more, but I presume a couple hundred don't make it a mass market product)...

so, basically, you either get an expensive unit that works, but it has flaws, or you have a cheap unit that works in a very limited territory... which is the situation we have today...

I think the future is in software effects, but until then, I say go with a keyboard (cheap, has everything) or multiple pedals (expensive, lots of choices)... a bonus of multiple pedals, as it was already suggested, is that you can go modular - start with the basics and explore...

although, there may be a marketing solution for some company - they should start a line of effects pedals, that could be used by both guitarists and bassists and that could be used to build a "modular synth pedalboard". it should be made as easy as Lego bricks

[Gashaponcito]

I love the O.S. I would only add the following:
polyphony of 2 notes
option of adding 2 octaves
better tracking
patch editing software
2 multifunction jacks (exp pedal, dry out,wet out, etc)

[Happynoj]

Originally Posted by sikamikanico

although, there may be a marketing solution for some company - they should start a line of effects pedals, that could be used by both guitarists and bassists and that could be used to build a "modular synth pedalboard". it should be made as easy as Lego bricks

I always wondered why Line 6 never did a Tonecore multi effect - like the ones that you slotted those little modules into, but that could hold like five or six cores instead of just one. You mean that sort of thing?

[bassbmx]

I've been thinking about selling my OS and picking up a G5 but you guys have me reconsidering now. I'd really like to get an SYB-5 though.

I would fully recommend a Boss LS-2 line selector to anyone looking to get the synth bass thing going on.

In one loop of an LS-2, I have...
OC-2 => VT1overdrive => Line6 FM4 => Q-tron+

In the other loop...
Octavius Squeezer => FX25

With a Boss limiter after to keep the spikes to a minimum. I'm able to get some really cool, useable sounds from it but there are definitely a few things that need to be added...

I have a Micro Synth with expression mod on the way and an Electrix Filter Factory to get some synth lowpass/highpass sounds and hopefully that dubstep 'wobble'.

I'm going to get a Cathedral reverb to get those huge cavernous synth tones. Would love to get a Moog Low Pass and MP-201 but I'll see if the Filter Factory does what I need first. Might end up using both.

Micro reviews of my current synthy gear...

OC-2: Love it! The tracking is surprisingly good but it can definitely be picky... certain basses track better than others. Rolling off the back pickup and rolling the tone back a little helps a lot. Great before the FX-25 even though that's not usually how I have it set up. I can understand how it wouldn't appeal to someone looking for an organic sounding octave but it's great for synthy tones. I imagine the OC-2 => Moog Low Pass combination would be awesome!

Line 6 FM4: This thing is pretty wild. There are some really cool tones in there is you spend the time to find them. Some of the synth settings have multiple waveforms available and can be tweaked a lot. I wouldn't recommend this as a stand alone, magic bullet synth pedal but it is certainly worth having as part of an overall setup. Using the expression pedal is key to getting the most from it... either to have multiple presets available or to control cutoff/resonance etc. Also has decent Mutron style envelope presets.... total bonus!!

FX25: Not versatile at all but cheap and very very cool! Only does two things but does them really well. Number one is the 'rubbery' envelope filter. I really dig this tone. Quite different to the Q-Tron lowpass tone as it's a fat bandpass, not lowpass. Number two is the dubby, low sensitivity tone. Great for dub or big sub-bass synthy stuff.

Q-Tron+: Nice, fairly standard envelope filter. Both the upsweep and downsweep setting sound good. I like the downsweep with the OC-2 for Chameleon style sounds. I use it more on its own for funk stuff than in conjunction with other pedals as part of a synth setup.

Octavius Squeezer: Some great, self-contained synth tones but has a confusing interface. I'm starting to realise that it's probably just a bit beyond me. I really dig some of the more electronic sounding patches and the gated fuzz is awesome. Not digging the envelope filter tones as much as the Q-tron or FX25. I would recommend this to anyone who really has their head around synth terminology.

I'll post my thoughts on the Micro Synth and Filter factory when they show up.

Joe

[bassbmx]

I've found my FX25 to be quite touchy. The sensitivity needs to be set right or it will be either wide open too often or open only on the strongest notes. when it's set right, it's perfect though.

What other pedals are you using with it?