compressor for dubby bass

[stranded horse]

I need some recommendations for a nice but not too expensive compressor for a dubby bass (low pass cut off at 180 Hz, main action around 80 Hz). I got the DBX 160 and the FMR RNC in my mind, but hope for more suggestions.
Some general tips on how to set up a compressor for that kind of bass would be much appreciated too.

cheers, s.h.

[DannDubblewe]

I may be totally wrong here, but i'm pretty sure you would need a low pass filter (Moog MF-101, Iron Ether Xerograph, DOD FX25) to accomplish this and NOT a compressor.

[Matt Dean]

I play a lot of dub music and do not use a compressor. I do use an Iron Ether Xerograph, which is the BOMB low pass filter.

[stranded horse]

Excuse me, but why do you need a LPF when you can just roll off highs with the tone knob, and on the mixing desk or amplifier? (I always ask that myself when people mention a 300$ pedal like the moogerfooger when talking about dub bass. I'm sure King Tubby or Lee Perry didn't have one)

To prevent any speculation about gear and stuff, I better clarify everthing first:
I'm not the bassist of that band, I play guitar and I am the sound enigneer too. Our bassist is a big dub fan and a great bassist, but has no clue of the technological aspects (without me he wouldn't know flatwound strings exist, or that some people even change strings on their basses, because he happily used the same roundwounds for 10 yrs that his bass came with, because he rolled off the tone knob anyways).
He plays a Washburn active bass with D'addario Chromes (flats), tone rolled off, plugged directly into our mixing desk, I also roll off everthing above 400 Hz at the mixing desk (can't go lower, because its a parametric EQ), but as far as I can tell the tone knob already handles the low mids. I rout his signal 100% to the bass speakers, which consists of 2 18 inch Pa speakers, with an internal crossover. I'm not sure at which frequency the crossover is set, but it must be pretty low, because these are specifically bass speakers that don't put out much else than bass.

I really don't know how a Low Pass Filter pedal could change the sound in any way, but I am open to new thoughts.
.

[Skrogh]

Because that might not be enough if you want a real deep dubby bass.
Compressors are mostly for either keeping a constant volume or add punch, not shaping the frequency response.
A link to something that sound similar to the sound you are searching for might be helpful

[stranded horse]

Originally Posted by Skrogh

Because that might not be enough if you want a real deep dubby bass.
Compressors are mostly for either keeping a constant volume or add punch, not shaping the frequency response.
A link to something that sound similar to the sound you are searching for might be helpful

YouTube - ‪Tenor Saw - Ring The Alarm‬‏


Wouldn't a lower cap value on the tone pot decrease highs further?

[Matt Dean]

Originally Posted by stranded horse

Excuse me, but why do you need a LPF when you can just roll off highs with the tone knob, and on the mixing desk or amplifier? (I always ask that myself when people mention a 300$ pedal like the moogerfooger when talking about dub bass. I'm sure King Tubby or Lee Perry didn't have one)

To prevent any speculation about gear and stuff, I better clarify everthing first:
I'm not the bassist of that band, I play guitar and I am the sound enigneer too. Our bassist is a big dub fan and a great bassist, but has no clue of the technological aspects (without me he wouldn't know flatwound strings exist, or that some people even change strings on their basses, because he happily used the same roundwounds for 10 yrs that his bass came with, because he rolled off the tone knob anyways).
He plays a Washburn active bass with D'addario Chromes (flats), tone rolled off, plugged directly into our mixing desk, I also roll off everthing above 400 Hz at the mixing desk (can't go lower, because its a parametric EQ), but as far as I can tell the tone knob already handles the low mids. I rout his signal 100% to the bass speakers, which consists of 2 18 inch Pa speakers, with an internal crossover. I'm not sure at which frequency the crossover is set, but it must be pretty low, because these are specifically bass speakers that don't put out much else than bass.

I really don't know how a Low Pass Filter pedal could change the sound in any way, but I am open to new thoughts.
.

I actually use just the tone controls on my bass and amp about 75% of the time when playing dub and 100% when playing reggae.

The amp I use (mesa fathom/m6) has a "deep" switch that really shifts the low end, adding sub-low as well as some extreme-top end. I use this a lot to make my tone fat and warm.

I use the Xero mostly for envelope functions, but I do use the low pass filter when I want ridiculous/massive lows either during break downs or when I just want to fill the room... with massive low end goodness.

[DannDubblewe]

I understand the concept of rolling off frequencies, but because I do not play ONLY dub/ reggae I like the LPF to make that sound for me and allow me to switch back to just your "regular" bass sound via a stomp switch. With just my bass and SWR head I can achieve a super deep dub sound, but because I don't want to constantly be moving knobs around on my head I prefer the LPF. It's not just for dub, and I realize that, but yeah. Also, the LPF gets WWAAYY deeper than just the controls on my SWR.


And the DOD FX-25 envelope filter gets a lot of love around here for deep dub bass, and it can be had for between 30 to 70 dollars.

I don't think a compressor is what the OP really needs, basically.

*edit* It's not that I'm lazy, I just like my stompyboxies Whatever music I create is also based with electronica textures in mind, so I'm just putting my 2 cents in. It's what I do, these are my opinions, etc. etc. It's not like I'm above moving knobs on my amp *edit*

[stranded horse]

Ok, but the thing is we only play dub
and it's kind of not jamaican style to spend hundreds of dollars on a LPF Pedal because you're too lazy turn some knobs on the mixing desk/amp
So you don't think a compressor would be good for a nice dub tone?

[M Sterling]

The compressor is basically going to even out the volume of each note, it will not affect the frequency unless it is a multi band. Sometimes when using an LPF (or whatever to cut the high frequencies) there can be peaks where some notes stick out more than others or some notes are to "soft". A compressor could also be applied to this style by setting it with a slow attack and fast release to add more punch to the line, or vice versa to make everything really smooth and connected. Both of which can be cool in dub and reggae. I would go with something that offers a decent amount of control and a warm sound like the Markbass Compressore.

[pbass2]

Originally Posted by M Sterling

Sometimes when using an LPF (or whatever to cut the high frequencies) there can be peaks where some notes stick out more than others or some notes are to "soft".

This is because--at least in the case of say an MF101, you are often increasing the resonance around a certain frequency. Can work great if you're playing "to the filter" so to speak, i.e. not straying far from that frequency.

But back to compressors--A comp is not going to give you a good dub/reggae bass sound if the tone isn't there to begin with. The comp will help you fit a good tone into the mix just as you would use compression on bass in any other genre (that is, gently--it's not a bandaid).
If he's just plugging that active bass direct into the desk, I'd think more about finessing his tone BEFORE it gets to the board, and definitely before starting to compress it. Since it sounds like he's amp-less, start looking at preamps that have some color and good EQ on them, even something like a VT bass pedal. My guess is that bass needs some warmth and some balls that it is likely missing. From the way you describe the rig, I imagine a very low low bass sound with no real character or clarity.
I would look at things like the VT, the Xotic Bass BB or RC or Tri-Logic (I used my Tri touring opening up for Burning Spear and the soundmen loved the sound I was sending). Even a Sansamp, or BassPod, etc. have plenty of ability to sculpt a great tone to send to the board.
Check out Family Man, Robbie, Bill Laswell, etc.--they're playing with a very warm, pretty wide open bass sound, not just a ton of lows and nothing else in the tone.

[Matt Dean]

Originally Posted by pbass2

Check out Family Man, Robbie, Bill Laswell, etc.--they're playing with a very warm, pretty wide open bass sound, not just a ton of lows and nothing else in the tone.

I easily get Family Man and Laswell tones with my jazz style bass and mesa fathom... deep, warm and wide really is what's happening with those guys.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by stranded horse

and it's kind of not jamaican style to spend hundreds of dollars on a LPF Pedal because you're too lazy turn some knobs on the mixing desk/amp

That's super ignorant and shameful.
1) An EQ cannot do what a resonant filter can do. Learn the difference.
2) There are dozens of resonant filters that are much cheaper than the Moog, so do not conflate "use a resonant LPF" with "spend hundreds of dollars". Plus back in the 70's, resonant filters were commonplace.
3) The great dub engineers used racks full of effects processors. They didn't do that out of laziness.

[stranded horse]

Originally Posted by bongomania

That's super ignorant and shameful.

I am sorry if that offended you, that was only in response to:

Originally Posted by DannDubblewe

I understand the concept of rolling off frequencies, but because I do not play ONLY dub/ reggae I like the LPF to make that sound for me and allow me to switch back to just your "regular" bass sound via a stomp switch.

Originally Posted by bongomania

2) There are dozens of resonant filters that are much cheaper than the Moog, so do not conflate "use a resonant LPF" with "spend hundreds of dollars". Plus back in the 70's, resonant filters were commonplace.

Which? I haven't found any. I'd be happy if you name me few.

Originally Posted by bongomania

3) The great dub engineers used racks full of effects processors. They didn't do that out of laziness.

That is just not true. Scientist and Madprofessor nowadays might own every tool imaginable, but King Tubby didn't have much else than a spring reverb, a tape echo, a phaser and a High Pass Filter (which he added into his mixing desk). Same as Lee Perry, he only had a Space Echo and a Mutron Bi-Phase.

My point was that these guys couldn't afford every piece of technology, and found other ways to get nice results. For example Lee Perry only had a 4-Track and a 2-Track tape recorder, which he used to rout instruments back and forth between the tracks, in order to get more available tracks.

Originally Posted by pbass2

But back to compressors--A comp is not going to give you a good dub/reggae bass sound if the tone isn't there to begin with. The comp will help you fit a good tone into the mix just as you would use compression on bass in any other genre (that is, gently--it's not a bandaid).
If he's just plugging that active bass direct into the desk, I'd think more about finessing his tone BEFORE it gets to the board, and definitely before starting to compress it. Since it sounds like he's amp-less, start looking at preamps that have some color and good EQ on them, even something like a VT bass pedal. My guess is that bass needs some warmth and some balls that it is likely missing. From the way you describe the rig, I imagine a very low low bass sound with no real character or clarity.
I would look at things like the VT, the Xotic Bass BB or RC or Tri-Logic (I used my Tri touring opening up for Burning Spear and the soundmen loved the sound I was sending). Even a Sansamp, or BassPod, etc. have plenty of ability to sculpt a great tone to send to the board.
Check out Family Man, Robbie, Bill Laswell, etc.--they're playing with a very warm, pretty wide open bass sound, not just a ton of lows and nothing else in the tone.

Sorry if this sounds ignorant but how will any preamp add any warmth/will sculpt your tone, if everything you put out is below 200 Hz. I don't know if such a limited frequency range justifies the use of a preamp, or what a preamp would do exactly to improve the tone. Can you please explain? Specially if you're talking about Bill Laswell, who uses a LPF and then goes straight into the mixer.
I am not suggesting it doesn't help, and just don't know how and would love someone to explain me. I am just questioning a few things that I don't really understand hoping to learn a new thing or two.

regards,
s.h.

[pbass2]

Originally Posted by stranded horse

I am sorry if that offended you, that was only in response to:



Which? I haven't found any. I'd be happy if you name me few.


That is just not true. Scientist and Madprofessor nowadays might own every tool imaginable, but King Tubby didn't have much else than a spring reverb, a tape echo, a phaser and a High Pass Filter (which he added into his mixing desk). Same as Lee Perry, he only had a Space Echo and a Mutron Bi-Phase.

My point was that these guys couldn't afford every piece of technology, and found other ways to get nice results. For example Lee Perry only had a 4-Track and a 2-Track tape recorder, which he used to rout instruments back and forth between the tracks, in order to get more available tracks.





Sorry if this sounds ignorant but how will any preamp add any warmth/will sculpt your tone, if everything you put out is below 200 Hz. I don't know if such a limited frequency range justifies the use of a preamp, or what a preamp would do exactly to improve the tone. Can you please explain? Specially if you're talking about Bill Laswell, who uses a LPF and then goes straight into the mixer.
I am not suggesting it doesn't help, and just don't know how and would love someone to explain me. I am just questioning a few things that I don't really understand hoping to learn a new thing or two.

regards,
s.h.

Bill Laswell does not simply use a LPF and go straight into the mixer. His amp sound is a huge part of his tone equation actually.
The classic music you refer to was largely all mic'd bass amps too btw.

Anyhow, there's plenty of tone shaping and warmth to be had in any frequency range. I think you are mistaking a low dubby bass guitar sound for some kind of "pure bass" tone or something of that ilk, which you could get from a synth generating nothing but a sine wave, but not from a bass guitar (of course then it would still depend on WHICH synth, how it was being amplified, etc.) And in dub, the bass REALLY has to be "alive" with character. It's not just a bunch of clear as glass low frequencies.

All I'm saying is, if the bass sound is lacking, fix it before you send it to the board. If you're going amp-less like you are, then you need to give that bass some help another way--a preamp that has a nice EQ and voice to it, something with some tube warmth, a high quality DI that has character, etc.

[kevteop]

I'm not going to disagree with what's been said above, but I would like to say what's done me well in the past:

Get a Jazz bass, string it with flatwounds (I use LaBellas) and if necessary fit a .1uF capacitor to the tone pot. I think Fenders by default have a .047.

Another big plus is wiring the pickups in series - this really beefs things up and also gives you a volume boost. Handy if you're rolling off a lot of highs with a big tone capacitor.

I never used a compressor, or a low-pass filter pedal.

[stranded horse]

Originally Posted by pbass2

All I'm saying is, if the bass sound is lacking, fix it before you send it to the board. If you're going amp-less like you are, then you need to give that bass some help another way--a preamp that has a nice EQ and voice to it, something with some tube warmth, a high quality DI that has character, etc.

I dont think our bass sound is lacking, I am just branching out to learn a new thing or two.

[Skrogh]

I personally have bad experience with running my directly into the PA, the tone is just lacking that "something".
When you said dub I thought of that really deep, almost inaudible deep bass, but the bass in the clip isn't that deep actually, What i notice the most is the fast decay of the notes. A compressor might actually help with this under the right settings - look at what M Sterling said in post #10.
Have you tried having him alter his picking technique? Close to the bridge, close to the neck, using his thumb, palm-muting?

[pbass2]

Good info about Laswell here:

Let The Rhythm Hit

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by stranded horse

Which? I haven't found any. I'd be happy if you name me few.

DOD FX25, EHX Q-Tron (several versions), Ibanez/Maxon AF9/AF201, Guyatone BR2, many wah pedals, MAM/NEXT Warp9 & RS3, Electrix Filter Factory/Queen, lots more. Plus they are a common part of analog synthesizers, and electronic recordists have been running audio through synth filter inputs since their invention. Yes a filter module by itself costs the same as a Moog, but if you have an old analog keyboard lying around then it's "free".

Originally Posted by stranded horse

That is just not true.

I'll admit I exaggerated by saying "racks full" of effects, however--

Originally Posted by stranded horse

King Tubby didn't have much else than a spring reverb, a tape echo, a phaser and a High Pass Filter (which he added into his mixing desk).

So that's four major effects units that are not an ordinary EQ knob--and one of them is a filter, probably resonant.

Originally Posted by stranded horse

Same as Lee Perry, he only had a Space Echo and a Mutron Bi-Phase.

...and a spring reverb, and his tracks are absolutely drenched with all three of those effects. I'd bet anything that if he had a Moog, he would have used the heck out of it. And was it un-Jamaican of him to use the Space Echo and Bi-Phase that were not exactly cheap when they came out? Talking about Scientist and Tubby, both of them were early adopters of electronic technology, and both of them built some of their own effects units. Were they just too lazy to use the EQ on their mixing desk?

How about Stu Brooks of Dub Trio, is he lazy? No? Then what about that Moog at his feet...

Originally Posted by stranded horse

My point was that these guys couldn't afford every piece of technology, and found other ways to get nice results.

Sure, true--and I would say their sound was hugely dependent on their recording methods, which is very different from how a live band is amplified, and from how a modern band will be recorded (onto a computer).

The best we can do, short of bouncing dozens of tracks down on some old reel tape, is emulate that effect with other technology. Why would a compressor be an acceptable piece of technology to buy and use, and not a filter? Isn't it the same thing, hoping one modern piece of gear will help get the Black Ark sound?

Incidentally, and you may find this funny after my argument, but I don't even think a filter is important at all for dub. My objection was only to your assertion that an EQ knob is all anyone needs for tone shaping, and that using an effect unit is lazy.

Originally Posted by stranded horse

Sorry if this sounds ignorant but how will any preamp add any warmth/will sculpt your tone, if everything you put out is below 200 Hz. I don't know if such a limited frequency range justifies the use of a preamp, or what a preamp would do exactly to improve the tone.

That's a complex question. One aspect is that the best LPF tone is actually blended with the clean tone, so you get all of the harmonics of the original signal, but with the uber-fat emphasis of the resonant range. Another is the amp--the clipping of a tube amp is somewhat similar to the clipping of tape saturation, and clipping means lots more upper harmonic content, even if the signal that caused the clipping didn't have so much upper content. And lastly, surely you've heard a low end that sounded "flabby" or "tight", right? Those qualities are affected by how the signal is processed, and a preamp is a signal processor. And just like any other signal processor, the good or bad results are all in how you use it.

FWIW, I don't think a compressor is a critical part of the dub sound either, however it is possible to use a "dirty" hard limiter to emulate tape saturation. The Valley People Dyna-Mite is one example, the Distressor is another. I've also had decent success from running a clean hard limiter into a warm/smooth overdrive.