Discussion about: Effects FAQ for Commerical Users

[grygrx]

Discussion thread for new sticky.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f36/ef...policy-850940/

[caeman]

This seems like an interesting policy for TB. On one hand, I can see how it might protect TB from lawsuits, but what if the Commercial User (CU) really is just a hobbyist (very small sales) and their opinion is valid or solicited by the membership? As a pedal builder, that actual experience can lend more cred to an assessment that some of us want when considering a pedal.

[bongomania]

Thanks for doing this, clarification has been needed.

Actually the rules put me in a tough spot personally because I regularly levy so much criticism at various products that are "my competition"; but I've felt OK with my actions because I so rarely say anything good about the ones I rep! They've had the same rule about "no commercial users dissing the competition" over at TGP for a while now, and it has gotten me into trouble there enough times that I've been seriously considering dropping my association with Exar, just so I can speak freely.

I'm not complaining, mind you, I think it's a good and fair rule; I just have a hard time complying with it.

[grygrx]

I don't think lawsuits is the concern.

It revolves around money that it takes to provide a service like talkbass, how a great deal of that money comes in (ads and sponsored forums), and equity between those that pay additional fees for those benefits and those that don't.

This is not a change to the CUP or how it's been interpreted in the recent past, it is more of an answer to common questions that David Wilson and I get on a regular basis, and clarification for everyone. I wanted to pull out important bits so it was as clear as possible.

[David Wilson]

Originally Posted by caeman

This seems like an interesting policy for TB. On one hand, I can see how it might protect TB from lawsuits, but what if the Commercial User (CU) really is just a hobbyist (very small sales) and their opinion is valid or solicited by the membership? As a pedal builder, that actual experience can lend more cred to an assessment that some of us want when considering a pedal.

If you read the CUP, you'll see it doesn't preclude or prohibit CU's from joining in discussions.

[caeman]

Originally Posted by David Wilson

If you read the CUP, you'll see it doesn't preclude or prohibit CU's from joining in discussions.

I read it, but maybe I confused it.

I rather enjoy Frank (FEA) and Max's ([sfx]) overly-technical replies that have made my brain hurt. I just don't want to see an end to that sort of stuff.

[David Wilson]

Originally Posted by caeman

I read it, but maybe I confused it.

I rather enjoy Frank (FEA) and Max's ([sfx]) overly-technical replies that have made my brain hurt. I just don't want to see an end to that sort of stuff.

in other forums, such as Amps, there is much contribution from Jim Bergantino, Genz Benz etc. Roger Sadowsky pipes in from time to time in Basses.

The CUP doesn't prevent any of this discussion, it's just trying to keep it bounded. So Frank can certainly talk about his pedals, explain any technical topic he wishes or answer a question asked to him. But he can't post unsolicited spam or trash the competition.

[rsmith601]

There is nothing in the policy which goes beyond good common sense. I sincerely hope we are always acting within the guidelines. I always try to keep them in mind.

[boomertech]

Hey David or grygrx, just out of curiosity do you guys usually send out a PM or email when a CU is in violation the CUP?

-Frank

[grygrx]

Originally Posted by boomertech

Hey David or grygrx, just out of curiosity do you guys usually send out a PM or email when a CU is in violation the CUP?

-Frank

Yep... though you can get points on your license for it. I mostly send warnings.

[Laurent]

I think it's very difficult to enforce and difficult to prove. How can anyone prove for certain that somebody who regularly posts and hypes XYX pedal is not a paid promoter by the brand. How do we make the difference between a true fan and a promoter?

I also think that the interaction between small builders on this board have yielded some interesting results. Fuzzrocious for example, Wren and Cuff to a lesser extent. Many other examples could come to mind. There is also value in hearing directly from the builder who can talk as an expert of their products.

I tend to think that just the democratic quality of a board comes with drawbacks but that overall we all come ahead because of the rich exchanges that happen here.

Strong warnings against "promotional posting" and asking people who post reveal their affiliations is probably as far as you can push this without lessening the content of talk bass.

I like the intent because I am constently wondering how much traffic of influence is going on but I also wonder to really enforce a cleaner environment.

[boomertech]

I have another question.

Let’s say a thread was started with the question: “Is there any pedal based on this super-duper XYZ effect/processor?”

Now the builder or company rep of a pedal answers that question with a reference to their product.

Is that in violation of the rules? I ask because they are actually answering a legit question, but at the same time they are promoting their product.

-Frank

[grygrx]

Originally Posted by boomertech

I have another question.

Let’s say a thread was started with the question: “Is their any pedal based on this super-duper XYZ effect/processor?”

Now the builder or company rep of a pedal answers that question with a reference to their product.

Is that in violation of the rules? I ask because they are actually answering a legit question, but at the same time they are promoting their product.
-Frank

It's a line rider for sure. I think the initial comment is fine. It's not quite a general "which pedal is best" type thread that is referred to specifically in the CUP, but that said, if it turns into a marketing fest afterward it could become an issue.

[boomertech]

Originally Posted by grygrx

It's a line rider for sure. I think the initial comment is fine. It's not quite a general "which pedal is best" type thread that is referred to specifically in the CUP, but that said, if it turns into a marketing fest afterward it could become an issue.

Thanks…I can see where this would be a difficult call. Because after the manufacturer initially answered the question, there is sometimes a flood questions that follows directed back to that manufacturer.

-Frank

[VincentSalizeri]

I agree with the block on unsolicited advice. I can't view the CUP on my phone at the moment, so I'd like to ask for a bit of clarification: If a poster asks for opinions on a pedal (or other piecevof gear) is it within bounds for a CU to say that the pedal isn't good (or is good etc)? Basicallyvwhat I'm asking is can CU's post their opinions about competing brands in threads about said brands? Is this pretty much a rule against marketing spam?

[grygrx]

Originally Posted by VincentSalizeri

I agree with the block on unsolicited advice. I can't view the CUP on my phone at the moment, so I'd like to ask for a bit of clarification: If a poster asks for opinions on a pedal (or other piecevof gear) is it within bounds for a CU to say that the pedal isn't good (or is good etc)? Basicallyvwhat I'm asking is can CU's post their opinions about competing brands in threads about said brands? Is this pretty much a rule against marketing spam?

Negative comments by commercial users are not allowed:

Comment on the products/services/character of competition (unless it is praise or recommendation). Doing so presents conflict-of-interest issues.

[VincentSalizeri]

Originally Posted by grygrx

Negative comments by commercial users are not allowed:
Comment on the products/services/character of competition (unless it is praise or recommendation). Doing so presents conflict-of-interest issues.

Thanks, that makes sense. So they can recommend or explain other pedals? Just no dissing them.

[David Wilson]

Originally Posted by Laurent

I think it's very difficult to enforce and difficult to prove. How can anyone prove for certain that somebody who regularly posts and hypes XYX pedal is not a paid promoter by the brand. How do we make the difference between a true fan and a promoter?

It is indeed hard to prove, but the rules say that if you have such a relationship you HAVE to disclose it so people can 'consider the source'. People who willfully and repeatedly ignore this will find themselves banned.

I also think that the interaction between small builders on this board have yielded some interesting results. Fuzzrocious for example, Wren and Cuff to a lesser extent. Many other examples could come to mind. There is also value in hearing directly from the builder who can talk as an expert of their products.

I tend to think that just the democratic quality of a board comes with drawbacks but that overall we all come ahead because of the rich exchanges that happen here.

Strong warnings against "promotional posting" and asking people who post reveal their affiliations is probably as far as you can push this without lessening the content of talk bass.

I like the intent because I am constently wondering how much traffic of influence is going on but I also wonder to really enforce a cleaner environment.

just to be reinforce this again: the CUP does not prevent useful information being provided by builders, in fact it promotes it by bounding CU's to ONLY this sort of discussion by and large.

[rsmith601]

In my experience I know fairly clearly when I am about to step over the line. For instance, there is a post right now about the best EQ pedal for under $XXX. Our pedal is not listed. Do I want to chime in and say "hey, what about the SA pedal?" Of course I do, but I should not.

I would say that when the title of the thread is our product, or it is a "club" thread, I am a bit more inclined to comment.

They key rules for me are: 1) don't over-promote your stuff by dropping it into a new thread or someone elses thread unless there is a narrow question (i.e. "I am looking for a small EQ pedal with a MIDI input"). 2) Don't bash other products. 3) Be very clear who you are at all times.

The exchange back and forth with TB has led to us being much more attentive to the needs of this community in our pedals.........and that has made them better pedals. I believe it is a classic win-win.

[grygrx]

It's been brought to my attention that many violations of these rules have been occurring while I've been off playing Diablo III. I'll be lurking in club threads and other dark haunts I don't normally stick my neck into and handing out violations as they occur. As usually, feel free to ask any questions here so we can keep the air clear.