Discussion of Recording Demo Techniques

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by RCCollins

funny how nobody says that when a boutique builder provides their own clips

I regularly diss and dismiss the demo clips provided by many boutique builders, because so often the clips are recorded through an all-tube guitar amp that's being driven a little or a lot. IOW they are just as guilty as Boss, and I say so.

[Mark Olson]

But what about for those of us who do play through tube amps, and play those tube amps to the point of or beyond the point of clipping? Should we not be able to hear the finer subtleties of the interaction between a prospective purchase and those cranked up tubes?

Many pedals are designed to and do work best into a sweating tube amp. Guitar pedals, especially, are very often ran into sweating tube amps. Let's take tubescreamers, for instance, a very large part of the pedal market. Tubescreamers are incredibly commonly used as a boost into a cranked Marshall amp for that "brown sound". And what would be wrong about demonstrating that to prospective buyers? That's just a very large for instance. I don't think I need to mention the countless players of tubescreamers, again for instance, that play them through sweating tube amps.

And perhaps some manufacturers design some of their pedals specifically to be ran into a sweating tube amp. They're not usually going to market it in such a way as to say specifically "this pedal is meant to be used with a tube amp". Though I've seen things said about products to that affect. But no, that just disinterests some perspective buyers. Instead, they'll show you how the effect was intended to be used in their demo. Intended to be used, and how it sounds it's best. And what manufacturer is going to go out of their way to demonstrate their product used not as intended, sounding less than it's best?

I'm just saying that saying doing pedal demos through a cranked up tube amp is misleading seems to presuppose that the pedal designer's/marketer's target market doesn't play cranked up tube amps, which would be wrong in many, many cases.

[bongomania]

It's dishonest. What you are hearing is not the sound of the pedal, but the sound of the pedal and that amp. Certainly there are still some bassists who use all-tube amps and overdrive them, but (a) that population is a small and dwindling minority, and (b) they are typically not using a Fender Twin Reverb.

I'd understand if the demos included both a "direct to desk" version and a "miked tube amp" version, and if the miked tube amp was one that bassists actually use.

I'll give you an analogy about the makers demoing their product in the best light. As a grocery buyer of many years, vendors would always bring me new beverages to sample and they'd insist "you have to drink it cold". As soon as I heard those words, I'd pop it open warm and drink it. Of course it tastes OK when it's cold, because the cold is refreshing, and it also dulls the sensitivity of your taste buds. I want to know how it tastes warm, because that's the only way to know if it actually tastes like sewage. It's absolutely the same thing with pedals, especially overdrive pedals. If it's being played through a Dumble, by god it's going to sound pretty good. I don't have a Dumble, I have a solid state amp. I want to know how the pedal actually sounds.

[Mark Olson]

Well for those of us who play decent amps, we want to hear the reaction of a pedal with a decent amp, how a pedal interacts with a decent amp is one of the most important characteristics of it. There's nothing misleading about that. To us that play decent amps, THAT is how the pedal actually sounds. And that's the way I want to hear it.

Look at it this way. The conclusion that it's dishonest to record demos through tube amps only logically stems from and completes a syllogism with the premises that:

1) Pedals sound superior through tube amps
2) It's dishonest to record demos through gear that gives a superior sound

Do you stop to think that perhaps, boutique pedals especially, are made with the target market in mind of players who desire to seek out superior sounding gear? I mean, that's what boutique pedals are supposed to be anyhow, right? So of course those players are going to seek out superior sounding amps, perhaps tube amps, if, according to your conclusion, they sound better.

And once again, the second premise is false because, like I've said, there is absolutely nothing dishonest about demoing your gear in the manner in which it is intended to be used. Players who desire to use these pedals in a manner other than intended do so at their own risk of sub par tone. That's just simply part of the pedal game. There's no reason to get raw about it, that's just the way it is.

[Mark Olson]

Also, I thought I'd add that, while beginners to bass, and how many beginners to bass are going to be interested much in effects at that, may not realize that pedals will probably sound better through a better amp, there's no need to go around talkbass warning about the evils of pedal demos with decent amps. Gear sounds better through a good amp, that's just common sense for anybody who's tried more gear than a beginner that's only played through one amp. We know.

But no, on the other hand, what's more misleading is that effects, except maybe amp emulators, sound like fried poo in demos recorded direct. Perhaps beginners to effects, a different group than beginners to bass, are being mislead by demos recorded direct to think that effects in general sound like fried poo. That might partly explain why more bass players don't try effects, might it not?

Me myself, while I've never been mislead once by an effect demo to think that the effect in question would give me a sound I didn't get with it because the demo was played through an amp more decent than mine, I've been mislead into thinking plenty of pedals sounded like poo because of demos recorded direct. And that's in over 30 grand worth of pedal purchases, which is quite a lot of experience with effects.

[bongomania]

Again, an overdriven guitar amp is not a bass amp, and it necessarily adds so much coloration that it obscures the pedal. It has nothing to do with "quality". I have owned some very high quality solid state and hybrid amps. And I bet if you were to go into the Amps forum and proclaim that an all-tube guitar amp is the highest quality amp there is, and that all solid state and hybrid bass amps are low quality and make the signals played through them sound like fried poo, you would be laughed off the field.

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

effects, except maybe amp emulators, sound like fried poo in demos recorded direct.

Nonsense. Flat out balderdash. I own and have used a huge number of effects that sound great through a clean mixer channel. In fact the only effects I've ever used where that wasn't the case, were certain (but not all) overdrives and distortions.

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

Perhaps beginners to effects, a different group than beginners to bass, are being mislead by demos recorded direct to think that effects in general sound like fried poo. That might partly explain why more bass players don't try effects, might it not? ...I've been mislead into thinking plenty of pedals sounded like poo because of demos recorded direct. And that's in over 30 grand worth of pedal purchases, which is quite a lot of experience with effects.

I don't want this to become a situation of "hard feelings", but all of that bit I just quoted makes me gag with disbelief. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

[Mark Olson]

I'm not saying anything about tube guitar amps... you've got a nasty habit of oversimplifying what you read into more familiar and less grounded arguments that you can irrelevantly more easier combat, stereotypical misconceptions, if you will, that you believe everyone who reads these forums has.

But really, it is not true of all tube amps that they add too much coloration for whatever purposes... Guitar or bass amps. Your gross oversimplification about tube amps is grossly untrue.

But for that sake a lot of coloration in tone comes from a lot of things, not just the amps. You may as well go around saying that it's dishonest to record demos with an active preamp, which also colors the tone, or with a Rickenbacker, just for example, that has a very distinct tone that you can't cop with other gear either. It's the sound of the pedal only added to the Rickenbacker, as you would say. Or with a direct box that adds any coloration. Direct boxes add color too, you know. No, you cannot simply get "just" the tone of the pedal. You get the tone of the player, the bass, the strings, the pickups, the preamp, the cables, etc.

But the bottom line is that pedals are, very obviously, meant to be used through amps. What's more misleading, demoing a pedal the way it was meant to be used, or demoing it in a manner other than it was intended to be used in? If you want to hear how a pedal ACTUALLY sounds, you have to use it in the manner intended.

[RCCollins]

Originally Posted by CrispyDelicious

I should have used a happier-looking smiley; I didn't want to crap on your parade.

No need to buy me a pint. In fact, when i posted this, I hadn't wathced the video - just listend to 3 clips that i can no longer find on that page.

Originally Posted by bongomania

I regularly diss and dismiss the demo clips provided by many boutique builders, because so often the clips are recorded through an all-tube guitar amp that's being driven a little or a lot. IOW they are just as guilty as Boss, and I say so.

I know you do. I was just describing a general tendency.




Oh, and I use a tube amp and from now on i demand that ALL dirt demos be mic'd recordings of a Mesa buster through a PH15. Thanks guys!

[fightthepower]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

Also, I thought I'd add that...

...And that's in over 30 grand worth of pedal purchases, which is quite a lot of experience with effects.

I was going to say that you forgot to mention something but...


.. oh and, "decent amp".

[Mark Olson]

Not sure I see what you're getting at there, haha.

Anyways, we can dance around the point all we want but I know we've all got the sense to realize it's ridiculous to expect pedal manufacturers to go out of their way to demonstrate their products in a way they didn't intend them to be used.

[RCCollins]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

Not sure I see what you're getting at there, haha.

I didn't until I peeped your profile.

[KromaatiKlauun]

Originally Posted by bongomania

I'll give you an analogy about the makers demoing their product in the best light. As a grocery buyer of many years, vendors would always bring me new beverages to sample and they'd insist "you have to drink it cold". As soon as I heard those words, I'd pop it open warm and drink it. Of course it tastes OK when it's cold, because the cold is refreshing, and it also dulls the sensitivity of your taste buds. I want to know how it tastes warm, because that's the only way to know if it actually tastes like sewage. It's absolutely the same thing with pedals, especially overdrive pedals. If it's being played through a Dumble, by god it's going to sound pretty good. I don't have a Dumble, I have a solid state amp. I want to know how the pedal actually sounds.

WARM SODA POP!!! BLUAGH!!!!

[KromaatiKlauun]

Originally Posted by RCCollins

Oh, and I use a tube amp and from now on i demand that ALL dirt demos be mic'd recordings of a Mesa buster through a PH15. Thanks guys!

Well then, I demand that all demos have only one note played and not some extravagant riff; and also through a clean mixer, to have a good idea what they sound like and not take'em as some kind of "talent/god rig" simulator.

(I really hate all that "I play better than all of you" demos)

[RCCollins]

Originally Posted by bongomania

I'll give you an analogy about the makers demoing their product in the best light. As a grocery buyer of many years, vendors would always bring me new beverages to sample and they'd insist "you have to drink it cold". As soon as I heard those words, I'd pop it open warm and drink it. Of course it tastes OK when it's cold, because the cold is refreshing, and it also dulls the sensitivity of your taste buds. I want to know how it tastes warm, because that's the only way to know if it actually tastes like sewage. It's absolutely the same thing with pedals, especially overdrive pedals. If it's being played through a Dumble, by god it's going to sound pretty good. I don't have a Dumble, I have a solid state amp. I want to know how the pedal actually sounds.

Some things being played through a Dumble still come out sounding like the taste of warm Mr Pibb.

Why, you ask? well, it has something to do with completely bogus physics! (0:30)

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

you've got a nasty habit of oversimplifying what you read into more familiar and less grounded arguments that you can irrelevantly more easier combat, stereotypical misconceptions, if you will, that you believe everyone who reads these forums has.

Wait, what? You have taken great pains to try to paint me as using logical fallacies, but the fact is I am very keenly aware of logical fallacies. I do not use them except when I am trying to make a joke, or when I feel like a bit of hyperbole is warranted. And my objection to your statements is partly based on your use of fallacies. For example, you claim that a clean recording of effects is misleading to bassists and will sound like fried poo, because they are too clean, uncolored by an amp; but then you want to argue that clean DI channels and solid state amps are just as coloring as an overdriven tube amp.

The fact that you are accusing me of having a "nasty habit", considering so many other people consider me one of the more logical and thoughtful posters here, makes me wonder what filter you are reading through. Did I insult you some time back? Did I disagree with you on another occasion, such that you have convinced yourself anything I say must be a logical fallacy?

What exactly do you think are the "stereotypical misconceptions, if you will, that (I) believe everyone who reads these forums has"?

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

But really, it is not true of all tube amps that they add too much coloration for whatever purposes... Guitar or bass amps. Your gross oversimplification about tube amps is grossly untrue.

Here again, you are using your own oversimplification filter and reading me through it. I have repeatedly said "overdriven guitar amps", nothing about amps run clean. That is all I said, and that is all I meant. I stand by the statement that using an overdriven guitar amp to market an overdrive pedal for bass is very different from any clean representation of that signal. You go on a bit about how everything provides coloration, and that's true-- but not everything adds audible distortion to the signal. In fact most of the time there is no audible distortion from any of the other devices/gear you mentioned. That is my point, and has very clearly been my point from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

the bottom line is that pedals are, very obviously, meant to be used through amps.

Obviously. Again, please remind me what percentage of the bass players out there are playing through tube guitar amps?

[Mark Olson]

Okay, well if you're talking about pedals in general, you're probably mostly talking about dirt pedals. I'm assuming you're not whining about somebody demo'ing a chorus through a dirty amp, are you? No, that would be pointless, so lets focus on dirt.

I don't need to point out that guitar dirt pedals are made for guitar, and therefore meant to be used with typical guitar gear. I also don't need to point out that probably the majority of guitar players play tube amps, often sweating tube amps. And then even most bass dirt pedals are based on guitar dirt pedals and only optimized for bass, and as such are meant to be run through tube amps, often sweating tube amps, just like their guitar counterparts. You see it doesn't matter what the majority of bass players play, the majority of dirt pedals are meant to be run through tube amps by their very design, vintage desings, commonly. Exceptions include things like the Boss ODB-3, which even though intended for more modern gear choices in bassists, still sounds far superior through a sweating tube amp, I'm sure we've all heard.

Maybe the kids on the amp forum would find that assertion funny, but my experience teaches me different, having owned no less than four Boss ODB-3's and running them through a wide range of amplifiers. No, I don't put any stock in anything that gets said on the amp forum.

So once again, it's ridiculous to go around besmirching pedal builders for demo'ing their products the way they are intended to be used. I know you've got the sense to realize that, and I mean that as a compliment, but you've got too much pride to admit it.

[Nikoubis]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

Maybe the kids on the amp forum would find that assertion funny, but my experience teaches me different, having owned no less than four Boss ODB-3's and running them through a wide range of amplifiers. No, I don't put any stock in anything that gets said on the amp forum.

So, after bashing Bongo, you go and dismiss the whole amp forum and call posters like KJung kids whose opinion is not worth putting any stock in?

[Mark Olson]

Also, I shouldn't have to point this out, but maybe if a manufacturer demos their product through a sweating tube amp, that's a good sign they intend you to play it through a sweating tube amp. That's just common sense.

[Mark Olson]

So, after bashing Bongo, you go and dismiss the whole amp forum and call posters like KJung kids whose opinion is not worth putting any stock in?

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular from the amps forum, mind you, but if these masters of the bass forum are such gods of all tone, where are the soundclips?

Since we were once on the subject of recording direct, and I made a rather large assertion that dirt pedals, not amp modelers, mind you, sound like, how did I say? Fried poo, recorded direct. Yes. So I hereby challenge Bongomania, all in fun and with all respect, to put his bass where his mouth is and supply some soundclips of some of these dirt pedals that do not sound bad recorded direct. No EQ, amp modeling, tube preamps. Just bass -> dirt -> board. Or howabout a Radial JDI or anything along those lines. Then I can judge for myself. But I warn you, in probably $20,000 worth of dirt pedals I've owned maybe one that sounded tolerable taken direct to me. So I should modify my previous statements to include the fact that tone quality is purely subjective, but that's common sense. We all know that.

The d*** waving in this thread has reached critical mass! Dump the core! Dump the core!

Again my attempts at constructive debate fail miserably! Maybe I should consider modifying my approach .

[Nikoubis]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

Since we were once on the subject of recording direct, and I made a rather large assertion that dirt pedals, not amp modelers, mind you, sound like, how did I say? Fried poo, recorded direct. Yes. So I hereby challenge Bongomania, all in fun and with all respect, to put his bass where his mouth is and supply some soundclips of some of these dirt pedals that do not sound bad recorded direct. No EQ, amp modeling, tube preamps. Just bass -> dirt -> board. Or howabout a Radial JDI or anything along those lines. Then I can judge for myself. But I warn you, in probably $20,000 worth of dirt pedals I've owned maybe one that sounded tolerable taken direct to me. So I should modify my previous statements to include the fact that tone quality is purely subjective, but that's common sense. We all know that.

Well, grygrx does all his testing of various dirt boxes pretty much this way, so you could start at his site. To my (subjective) ears, most of them do not sound like fried poo.