A Discussion on Tone

[FreaqyFrequency]

This is a topic which has probably been covered more times on this subforum, nay, the entire site, than any other topic. Several things I'm about to say may also raise some modbrows (only as far as remaining topical is concerned), but I ask that you bear with me until the end of my post.

Last night, I was subject to a three-hour clinic held by none other than Anthony Wellington and Victor Wooten. They discussed several topics, (successfully blowing my mind on all of them) and one of them included tone.

Roughly translated, they said that people dance because of the subwoofers, because of the bass in the song. If the subs blew out, the dance floor would clear, because the tweeters by themselves cannot produce that musical energy that makes you feel the beat, or the groove.

He did discuss tone as applicable to hands and the tone knob, of course, but I think he could have delved even deeper into effects, if he had an audience that was, on a whole, even mildly interested in them.

Anyway, I think that what he discussed with hands and tone knobs is no different than stressing the root alone in a notes context, which he clearly does not do. It is the basis of your tone, but I don't believe it's necessarily the end of your tone. There can be so much more done with effects; delay, with phasers, chorus, overdrive, fuzz, distortion, you name it, that can change your tone, and get even more people out and dancing because they dig your tone, APART from what you can achieve with your hands and onboard/amp controls.

Anyway, I suppose my point is, to keep from dragging out any longer, that tone IS in the hands, but only the root of the tone. What you can embellish it with or transform it with can be just as important, if not more so, to the way people hear you.

[stflbn]

Or, the people on the dance floor don't give a rats a** about your tone and are only out there because the subs go BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP on the beat to allow them to appear as though they have rhythm.

Tone is a personal thing... players will never agree. Easy to generally agree though that consumers don't care or notice 90% of what players obsess over.

.

[rratajski]

What kind of tone does the Stay Puft Marshmallow man have?
(this will lose all humor when the OP changes his avatar)

Was he just talking about the base of tone in general, like the theory of it, or that tone is solely based on your hands and knobs on your bass?

Also, Piebald said, "All I need is drums to start a dance party." People don't dance to drums?

[FreaqyFrequency]

Oh absolutely. In fact, I think that IS a good thing that so many of us differ on what is our holy grail of tone, it sets us apart and makes us unique. Yet, at the end of the day, I still think that we can find something about most tones that we can respect, even if we don't like them.

And all of the above can most certainly be translated to effects. Just look at how many different types of each effect there have been over the years. If everyone agreed, there would only be one envolope filter, one wah, one overdrive, one fuzz, one phaser, one compressor, one chorus, one flanger. Think of how boring that would be!

[bongomania]

There's music for "music appreciators" and there's music that goes "bump" rhythmically in a way that people can dance to. Rave/techno dance scenes have proven that a bass line has nothing to do with whether people will dance. Bumping noises from the subs, yes. Bass guitar, no.

[FreaqyFrequency]

Originally Posted by rratajski

What kind of tone does the Stay Puft Marshmallow man have?

The kind of tone that crushes cities and covers people in liquid white...umm, nevermind?

Originally Posted by rratajski

Was he just talking about the base of tone in general, like the theory of it, or that tone is solely based on your hands and knobs on your bass?

Hmm.......I think he leaned toward the latter, but I don't think he personally believes that either. You can do a LOT with your hands to change tone, that is for certain, but I don't think he's a disciple of the same thing trolls like to come in here with, since he has messed with effects with the Flecktones before, and to good effect (see Scratch n' Sniff). Had he had more time to dedicate to tone, I think he could have discussed the theory of it, and how different it can be though.

Originally Posted by rratajski

Also, Piebald said, "All I need is drums to start a dance party." People don't dance to drums?

People do dance to drums, but if it's only drums, they won't dance hard, even if the drummer is a rhythm monster. The drums need that bass to complete the deep pocket, and to get people seriously grooving. That's my two cents, at least.

[Jared Lash]

Originally Posted by stflbn

Or, the people on the dance floor don't give a rats a** about your tone and are only out there because the subs go BUMP BUMP BUMP BUMP on the beat to allow them to appear as though they have rhythm.

Pretty much, though I'd raise your percentage to 95% especially as it relates to bass and even more so when talking about people whose primary criterion for music is that they can dance to it.

[WJGreer]

I've been struggling with this concept a lot recently. I've obsessed about my own tone for 20 years, and have spent countless dollars chasing better amps, cabinets, strings, and who knows what else, along with countless hours of denatured alcohol baths (for my strings, not for me), action tweaking, and combing this forum for new tone tools...

We use an Edirol R-09 to record most of our rehearsals and shows (what a great tool, by the way), and I listen critically to every one. What I have determined lately, as it relates to this topic, is:

• My tone sounds more or less the same no matter what I do, but...
• The more sophisticated my own tone goals, the less good my bass seems to sound in the mix.

I am almost ready to sell all my stuff, buy a 4-string precision bass with flatwounds, play it through a B-15, and forget the whole thing. Then again, I would probably sound the same as I do now...

[Jared Lash]

The reality is that TalkBass is largely centered on a discussion of minutia. This is obviously not endemic to TB or even musician sites in general. Pop over to a a bicycling site or a cooking site and see if you care about the details and specs on different racing bikes or can fathom the prices people pay for pots, pans and kitchen knives. Then understand that it's no different from most of the discussion that goes on daily here.

I'm as guilty as anyone else, especially when it comes to pedals - but the simple fact is that all of the things we discuss in such detail and with such fervor mean little to anyone other than bassplayers and practically nothing to non-musicians.

I think Wooten has a passion for music and teaching - I just think that he doesn't have the proper perspective. Especially since in his case his audiences consist primarily of fawning bass players.

[WJGreer]

Originally Posted by TheBigO

Especially since in [Victor Wooten's] case his audiences consist primarily of fawning bass players.

+1. That thought makes me remember a column on the last page of a Bass Player from a few years ago. It was written by Michael Manring (whom I think is really great) and focused on being a humble bass player and understanding and accepting our primary role playing footballs. The concept has some legitimacy, but coming from Manring it was preposterous.

[seacouch]

Originally Posted by WJGreer

+1. That thought makes me remember a column on the last page of a Bass Player from a few years ago. It was written by Michael Manring (whom I think is really great) and focused on being a humble bass player and understanding and accepting our primary role playing footballs. The concept has some legitimacy, but coming from Manring it was preposterous.

There are only so many gigs out there for players like Wooten and Manring. Their audience consists almost entirely of fawning bass players. How many producers are looking for monster chops-oriented bassists to play monster solos and busy basslines on their next project? Probably somewhere around zero.

[nad]

Originally Posted by FreaqyFrequency

Anyway, I think that what he discussed with hands and tone knobs is no different than stressing the root alone in a notes context, which he clearly does not do. It is the basis of your tone, but I don't believe it's necessarily the end of your tone.

Good analogy, I can dig it.

I tend to break things down into Tone and Sound. Tone comes from technique, Sound comes from equipment. I have no idea if this is correct in terms of semantics, but I do know that lousy technique will never sound good no matter the equipment.

As far as what makes the public think/dance/feel, believe you me, bass is waaaaaaaaaay down the list. If it took subwoofers to enjoy music nobody would have iPuds or lousy car stereos.

[FreaqyFrequency]

Originally Posted by nad

If it took subwoofers to enjoy music nobody would have iPuds or lousy car stereos.

Enjoy? Perhaps. Feel? No.

[olaff421]

My obsession with tone is purely for me. I know that most of the people that see my band play don't think "Wow! That bass player's tone is awesome!" There are times when people have told me that, but they are usually musicians that tell me, and a friend that builds guitars. As long as I think I sound good, and I sound good with the rest of the band I'm happy. What the normal non-musician/lay-person thinks doesn't play into my equipment buying choices. I play music for me first. If people come see me play even better. I care more about the tiny details of my tone than others do. I know this, and am fine with it.

[RickenBoogie]

+1 I could care less about the people who hear me play, who in turn could care less about MY tone. It's all about making me happy. They just hear the songs. I hear my tone. Simple.

[headtrip762]

I agree with olaff, Im the same way. Almost sounds like something youd say at a bassaholics anonymous meeting.

[JimmyM]

The audience as a whole may not be able to tell what each instrument is doing when everything sounds good, but they can sure as hell tell when it sounds bad. And that's why you play stuff that sounds good and sweat over details that don't matter to anyone else but you. Otherwise, if it doesn't matter, outfit your whole band with Behringer and First Act WalMart instruments.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by FreaqyFrequency

People do dance to drums, but if it's only drums, they won't dance hard, even if the drummer is a rhythm monster. The drums need that bass to complete the deep pocket, and to get people seriously grooving.

Again, go to a rave, or anything techno-dance-partyish. Boom boom boom in the subs, mobs of people dancing and packing the dance floor/arena all night long and into the wee hours, and not one bass guitar (or even BG-like synthesized bass line) heard all night. It's frankly delusional to think that bass guitar lines are anything approaching necessary for "dancing hard" or "serious grooving".

Don't get me wrong, I know bass has the power to move people too. But I also know from many, many nights out at clubs and rave-type events that bass guitar lines have nothing that the hard-dancing serious-grooving mob misses at all.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Again, go to a rave, or anything techno-dance-partyish. Boom boom boom in the subs, mobs of people dancing and packing the dance floor/arena all night long and into the wee hours, and not one bass guitar (or even BG-like synthesized bass line) heard all night. It's frankly delusional to think that bass guitar lines are anything approaching necessary for "dancing hard" or "serious grooving".

Don't get me wrong, I know bass has the power to move people too. But I also know from many, many nights out at clubs and rave-type events that bass guitar lines have nothing that the hard-dancing serious-grooving mob misses at all.

My response to that is "so what?" Sorry, not trying to be a yutz, but who cares? Some people dance to drums, some people dance to bass, some people dance to some crazy-ass rhythm that goes on only in their own heads. Unless you're getting paid on the basis of how many people are dancing to you and only you, it doesn't really matter, does it? Are you playing music or taking a poll?

[bongomania]

Are you responding to me or to the OP? Because most of your response sounds like it makes the most sense directed to the OP.

The point of my post was to disagree with the OP.