Distortion cutting through?

[Bocete]

Hey

I've been trying to make a nice distortion sound on my GT-10B, but even though I like the sound when playing alone, in a band setting I'm just not heard at all. If I radically boost the volume of that patch, I can be heard all over but then I'm uncomfortably loud and am drowning everyone else.

It's a punk-rock-metal bend with a distorted rythm guitar, and a distorted lead that comes and goes. Most of the time there's only one guitar.

The sound I'm after? I don't know, I'm just trying to discover new things, expand my palette. Being heard in the mix is something I want to understand and have power of when I'm designing a sound. For example, I'd like to find the sound of the bass in this video, between 0:41 and 0:53. It's not exactely what I want, but it would be a good start. The keyboards do that pitch-shift sound, the bass is just roaring underneath. At least I think.

I'm obviously an effect rookie, so don't hesitate to ask or advise anything. What I've tried is to use distortion with as little eq as possible - just a slight upper mid and high boost. I've also created a patch that's equivalent to my guitarist's DS-1 setting, but to no avail. Its a nice sound, but it doesn't cut through.

I've discovered that touch-wah with distortion can provide me with the attack that distortion inevitably takes. Should I go that way, and to what end?


TLTR: What do you do/use to make distortion heard and apparent in the mix, without drowning anyone else?

Thanks,
Bo

[JulienJeff]

maybe the distortion you put cut all the lows ?
I use a VT bass pedal and the drive knob gives a very good distortion, without cutting the lows

[Bocete]

I don't think so. When playing alone, it sounds deep and full. Searching the problem in this forum has already introduced me to the missing-lows problem, but I don't think that's the issue here. I will try to boost lows at the next rehersal, but it didn't sound shallow at all.

[theunknowndude]

one thing you may need to know is alot of distortion/fuzz pedals and patches cuts mids... and some of them may even just cut a bit of low end too... this is most likely the reason why you sound great in the bedroom but die in the live mix with out being overly loud ...

the options are predominantly use a different patch/pedal, try and eq some mids or low end etc back into it so you can be heard in the sonic pallete... or run it in a blend (if possible with the pedal or use LS2 to mix) so that you keep your original signal as well...

unfortunately this is why some pedals have been made redundant on my board... good luck tho!

and just for info, mids is usually what will 'cut through' the sonic soundsscape a bit more...

[tom once dead]

John Muyung's tone largely comes from a tube preamp and an immence amount of output from his pickups.

[rratajski]

You're probably cutting your mids. If you use a blend pedal or increase your mids, you should cut easily.

[Bocete]

Originally Posted by theunknowndude

one thing you may need to know is alot of distortion/fuzz pedals and patches cuts mids... and some of them may even just cut a bit of low end too... this is most likely the reason why you sound great in the bedroom but die in the live mix with out being overly loud ...

the options are predominantly use a different patch/pedal, try and eq some mids or low end etc back into it so you can be heard in the sonic pallete... or run it in a blend (if possible with the pedal or use LS2 to mix) so that you keep your original signal as well...

unfortunately this is why some pedals have been made redundant on my board... good luck tho!

and just for info, mids is usually what will 'cut through' the sonic soundsscape a bit more...

Thanks. I'll play with the eq, and will also blend the distorted signal with the direct signal.

Originally Posted by tom once dead

John Muyung's tone largely comes from a tube preamp and an immence amount of output from his pickups.

I think that it's more about how he uses the things he's got than about what he's got. That is the question here, how do I make what I have work.

My Dingwall has a lot of output. A LOT. And, I can boost the input to the patch by ~20db with a knob, and several of those can be put in series to boost even more. I doubt I'd get anything but fuzz by doing so. Besides, he's got a huuuge pedalboard in front of him that's bound to do something to his sound.

By the way, Myung's is not the epitome of distorted sound in my taste. It's just an example I was trying to replicate, without success.

[Bocete]

Originally Posted by rratajski

You're probably cutting your mids. If you use a blend pedal or increase your mids, you should cut easily.

So mids and blend it is.

[theunknowndude]

Originally Posted by tom once dead

John Muyung's tone largely comes from a tube preamp and an immence amount of output from his pickups.

listening to the video I have to agree, the yamaha basses have immense output (well if my old rbx375 is anything to go by, I got told to turn down a few times when hot swapping with another bass!) and that tone sounds a bit more tube dirty than full on distortion...

see if adding lower mids helps your cut through as well...

Boost mids. Distortion naturally gives a scooped EQ. Experiment around the whole mid-frequency spectrum.

Also, it depends on the instrument. With my Warwick + distortion, I ALWAYS cut through without having to tweak mids. With my Spector + distortion, I always have to tweak mids.

[Bish42]

Originally Posted by Bocete

So mids and blend it is.

I don't think the blend will solve your problem as what you'd be getting is a blend of mid-heavy clean signal and a scooped distorted signal. So you'd still end up not hearing any distortion.

I've had a similar problem with my Black Russian Big Muff. I've started using my old Boss ODB-3 instead with the treble cut back to about 9 o'clock, but I think I'm going to look for something with a mids control on it. A Musket or something.

[itswac]

This may be a direct plug, but I believe it is genuinely merited. Source Audio just released some distortion pedals which address the exact issue you're dealing with.

The new Pro Series distortion pedals come with both a graphic EQ and Clean Mix/Distortion Mix knobs so that if you ran into this problem live with your band, you could just make the fix quick and easy.

Check out the demo videos here

[JimmyM]

basically it's a matter of tweaking the eq until it works with the band. however, some pedals make that easier than others. the source audio pedal looks really sweet for that. i use a tech 21 vt and british pedal although i'll be switching to their PVTDI when it comes out (and I may get the source pedal down the road, too...lot of pedal for the $$$), and a handful of smaller makers make distortion pedals for bass that imho are a lot better than the ones in boss multis.

still, you should be able to do well with the boss because it's more of an eq issue. takes some experimenting to find the right eq niche in your band. usually it involves adding lows at around 125-200 hz, maybe scooping it a little (just telling you what worked for me...ymmv).

[rratajski]

Originally Posted by Bish42

I don't think the blend will solve your problem as what you'd be getting is a blend of mid-heavy clean signal and a scooped distorted signal. So you'd still end up not hearing any distortion.

That's not how a blend sounds/works in my setup. They work to balance things out...

[Bish42]

Originally Posted by rratajski

That's not how a blend sounds/works in my setup. They work to balance things out...

Well dunno. That's what I find anyway. I was using an xotic xblender and a Black Russian Big Muff blended to about 75% wet signal.

As soon as I was playing with the two guitars in my band, all I could hear was clean signal.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Bish42

Well dunno. That's what I find anyway. I was using an xotic xblender and a Black Russian Big Muff blended to about 75% wet signal.

As soon as I was playing with the two guitars in my band, all I could hear was clean signal.

your distortion artifacts can get sucked up in a mix. that's why i prefer non-blended pedals now.

[gumtownbassman]

Your GT-10B has the ability to blend the signal by using the dual channel/path, with the distortion on channel A and a dry sound on channel B.
You can set the channel split to use the frequency divider, send the lows through channel B and the Highs through the distortion.

Another trick i use is to add a sub octave effect before the distortion, i have the expression pedal set to mix in the octave and increase the distortion drive.

[Bocete]

I've just returned from rehersal. I've played with different things, and this is what I've come up with that works. It doesn't sound as good as some other things I've found when playing alone, but works with the band quite decently.

I split my signal into two channels. One is left entirely dry. The other channel has a noise gate first with a higher threshold, then an eq to boost highs. I play fretless, so it really needs to be done. Then it goes to some mild overdrive, where I've maxed "drive" to make it distort. For some reason, it sounds better than using a distortion with less drive. The output of the overdrive goes into an other eq, which increases the lows and lower mids. Only after that are the channels joined.

I was afraid that the blending I did will only make the dry channel come through the mix, and not the dist. However, the distortion channel produces a fuller sound because of the second eq, so it sounds ok. I've cut through without being too loud.

However, I'm not really fond of the sound I've got. It's dist and works well, but I think it might sound even better to my ears. In time I'll learn how to do it.

Regarding distorting only the highs - I've tried it previously, but the results were very bad. The highs dissapeared in the mix, so the sound was is if I used a low-pass filter without knowing what it is... It's not a fat distortion, it's just your plain old bass with distorted highs

[theunknowndude]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

your distortion artifacts can get sucked up in a mix. that's why i prefer non-blended pedals now.

definitely agree there, the only pedal I thought that sounded good blended was a Turbo Rat but even now I leave that unblended...

[Bish42]

I've got an MXR Bass Blowtorch coming in the post, gonna see if that helps cut through the mix a bit.