Does a Mutron like envelope with volume controle or no boost exist?

OhulahanBass · #1 08-01-2009, 03:35 AM

I love my Mutron III, the more I use it the better I know it and the better it sounds, but it took a while to handle volume boost. I was hoping to find another Mutron quality filter with volume controle or no volume boost. Does one exist? I run my Mutron through my amps effects loop after the preamp which is adjusted to minmize volume boost from the Mutron. I want to add another envelope with out worrying about volume levels when engaging and disengaging. Any suggestions on envelope filters or volume controle?

**TheMutt** · #2 08-01-2009, 03:53 AM

Firstly, I don't think that the effects loop is the best place to stick your Mutron. You can definitely use a compressor, or even a limiter to tame volume spikes, or you can stick it in a blender pedal loop. Envelope filters are essentially an instrument in and of themselves, and as such need to be learned how to be played. You can definitely modify your playing style to tame or even eliminate the volume spikes as well.

Alternatively, the Barge Concepts Grinder is based off of the Lovetone Meatball, which is in turn based off of the Mutron III. It has a built in blend, resonance control, and an added volume boost. Using it without the boost engaged, the blend on full, and with the resonance set correctly, I have not noticed a volume boost.

fightthepower · #3 08-01-2009, 05:06 AM

The Grinder, Meatball, and Mutron are 'based' off each other, but that statement is a little misleading to the uninformed; The Grinder is a basically clone of the meatball with a few improvements that don't change the overall character of the filter, whereas the Meatball is inspired by, or based on the Mutron but the circuit I assume is much different, and they definitely sound different. (to my ears anyway, maybe im mistaken about the circuit)

To answer the OP: Yes, there Mutron quality filters that do not have the volume spikes, but there are not any Mutron sounding filters that do not have the volume spikes-- the spikes are directly related the amount of resonance needed to reach that level of wetness. As The Mutt mentioned, the Grinder and some other filters have things like blends and control over resonance which can be used to tame the filter and control volume spikes, but they dilute the funk so-to-speak; they either mix your unaffected signal with the filtered signal or turn the down the resonance/wetness of the filters sweep. This may or may not be an issue (i don't mind it, I prefer a little less than mutron wetness for my application) for someone looking for a Mutron sound.

The Grinder is a good one to look into, and a cheaper option with less controls and less available resonance is the Groove Regulator. Similar to the Groove Regulator, in a sense, is the Prometheus; it has about an equal amount of resonance available and they both have smooth defined envelopes but different control sets and much different characters. The Moog Lowpass Filter and Photron filter are both nice filters, but compared to the competition they do not excel in envelope filtering in my opinion- They can get equally resonant as the Mutron, but the envelope is not as defined.

markjazzbassist · #4 08-01-2009, 12:33 PM

yep i know your problem. reason i sold my first 2 mutron iii's (originals). that volume boost is killer (sometimes i worried i was going to blow a speaker), but essential to the tone. with the gain lower the filter sounds different.

i've found the lovetone meatball and chunk systems agent 00funk mark ii don't have a volume spike. but they don't sound the same. the only thing that sounds like an original mutron iii, is one. so either deal with it or go with a different tonal colour. im gonna get another one soon, after getting rid of it, i'd ready to deal with the volume boost and accept it this time

cheers

h60 · #5 08-01-2009, 12:57 PM

Emma Electronics discomBoBulator is a nice alternative. Less knobs, but it I find it to be nice and smooth and never harsh.

LowB-ing · #6 08-01-2009, 01:52 PM

My sugestion would be to get a looper pedal and something to control the volume(could be a graphic EQ pedal with a volume slider or a good clean boost with a volume knob). Be sure to set the "volume controller" AFTER the mutron in the loop, to not mess with the envelope.

Some people have modded their mutrons with a volume control. Thats another option.

RCCollins · #7 08-01-2009, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhulahanBass

I love my Mutron III, the more I use it the better I know it and the better it sounds, but it took a while to handle volume boost. I was hoping to find another Mutron quality filter with volume controle or no volume boost. Does one exist? I run my Mutron through my amps effects loop after the preamp which is adjusted to minmize volume boost from the Mutron. I want to add another envelope with out worrying about volume levels when engaging and disengaging. Any suggestions on envelope filters or volume controle?

try using a limiter

Spencer! · #8 08-01-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fightthepower

The Grinder, Meatball, and Mutron are 'based' off each other, but that statement is a little misleading to the uninformed; The Grinder is a basically clone of the meatball with a few improvements that don't change the overall character of the filter, whereas the Meatball is inspired by, or based on the Mutron but the circuit I assume is much different, and they definitely sound different. (to my ears anyway, maybe im mistaken about the circuit)

To extrapolate on that, the Meatball has the same filter circuit as the Mutron (well, for the most part). The difference lies in the envelope follower circuitry. That's the part of the filter that tracks the note you play, which in the Mutron includes the input Gain stage. Lovetone redesigned this part of the filter, presumably because they didn't like the gain control from the Mutron.

jufros · #9 08-01-2009, 02:40 PM

I use the Maxon AF-9. It definitely boosts my volume but running my board into a DBX 166A really tames any harsh differences between my clean and effected tones.

RCCollins · #10 08-01-2009, 02:56 PM

Yeah, the AF-9 also has a pronounced volume spike - that DBX is what's making it tolerable

OhulahanBass · #11 08-01-2009, 04:26 PM

Mr. Mutt why shouldn't I run the mutron through my amps effects loop? There are alot of cool pedals here to check out thanks all. Not sure I want to mod my mutron but would I only have to put a pot infront of the line out? What size. Would a limiter rob a great filter of tone? I will always keep my Mutron on my chain so my next filter doesn't have to be identical in sound just quality. The 00Funk was great but I will be parting with it to explore other envelopes, I'm addicted to this adventure.

groooooove · #12 08-01-2009, 05:21 PM

it makes sence that, the more resonance a filter has, the louder it will be or seem. what i dont get is, why cant we take a highly-resonant, very wet sounding filter, and add a volume control to it? why dont any companies make a filter like this? even built in compression would seem logical. a two footswitch filter/comp would make just as much sence as a two footswitch overdrive/distortion, or od/clean boost, IMO. all my favorite filters have a volume spike that forces you to either 1. use compression 2. REALLY learn how to play the filter like its own instrument 3. take it off your board.

jufros · #13 08-01-2009, 05:26 PM

I'd pay really good money for that filter especially if it had an envelope input, clean blend option, and ADSR.

bongomania · #14 08-01-2009, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groooooove

it makes sence that, the more resonance a filter has, the louder it will be or seem. what i dont get is, why cant we take a highly-resonant, very wet sounding filter, and add a volume control to it?

Because resonance is a dynamic effect. If you turn down the overall volume, then everything that isn't in the resonant band will sound quiet and weak. Hence compression/limiting as a practical response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by groooooove

...even built in compression would seem logical. a two footswitch filter/comp would make just as much sence as a two footswitch overdrive/distortion, or od/clean boost

Yes, I agree completely. The only problem is that an effective, good-sounding limiter is a complex and expensive circuit to build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by groooooove

...all my favorite filters have a volume spike that forces you to either 1. use compression 2. REALLY learn how to play the filter like its own instrument 3. take it off your board.

#2 is a requirement that all filter users should take to heart and not complain about. Complaining about learning to play the filter is like complaining about learning to play the bass.

#1 is the most pragmatic response to volume spike problems.

#3 is an understandable reaction from people who get frustrated with #'s 1 and 2.

OhulahanBass · #15 08-06-2009, 03:10 AM

I'm visiting LA and found a great store to try almost every hard to get evelope filter in production. They said their bored and enjoy searching for quality merch. The stores name is True Tone Music. I tried many envelopes and decided on the 3leaf Groove Regulator. It was imposible to get a bad sound out of it, maintained the tone of the instrument as if there is some perfectly preset blend and has alot of tone shaping power. It sounds unique from my Mutron but can yield some deliciously vintage sounds. Seems easy to get to know, I could use it live tomorrow. Best part...No notable volume boost thus far!!!! I can't say all of this for any other pedal, though some of the other pedal I tried seem to have a larger sonic menue they take a while to find good settings and have volume boost.

OhulahanBass · #16 08-06-2009, 03:15 AM

Would placing a limiter or compressor after my Mutron effect my signal? Why would it be a bad Idea to put a mutron through an amps effects loop? I place my mutron w/in the effects loop to adjust the mutron gain to unity by finding a balance between the preamp gain and the effect.

bongomania · #17 08-06-2009, 09:55 AM

FWIW a lot of people here have praised the 3leaf pedal. Probably a good choice for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhulahanBass

Would placing a limiter or compressor after my Mutron effect my signal?

It better, or why would you put one there?

If you meant "will it harm my signal", then that is up to the quality of the comp/limiter and whether you can dial in the correct threshold and ratio for effective peak limiting without tone harming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhulahanBass

Why would it be a bad Idea to put a mutron through an amps effects loop? I place my mutron w/in the effects loop to adjust the mutron gain to unity by finding a balance between the preamp gain and the effect.

The "bad idea" is if the effects loop on a specific amp is not able to operate at the levels that are ideal for the effect pedal. Many amp effects loops are designed for line-level effects, not pedals. If you are able to get ideal in/out levels with the Mutron and your fx loop, then there is no problem.

**TheMutt** · #18 08-06-2009, 12:38 PM

Yeah. To chime in late on that, it's not that using the effects loop is a bad idea 100% of the time, it's just that most stomp box effects like to see the instrument signal instead of the amped up effects loop signal that has been boosted by the preamp. The effects loop is actually there mainly for rack effects that need a line level signal. But if it's working for you, more power to ya.

bigchiefbc · #19 08-06-2009, 01:17 PM

I definitely echo the "get a limiter" suggestion. Although I know its not the best one on the market, and I'm sure Bongo could recommend a better one, but I use and love my Boss LMB-3 for exactly this purpose. I have several effects that give a large volume boost, and the LMB-3 evens them all out perfectly. It took some fiddling around to get the threshold just right, but it was worth it. Enhance is off, and ratio is set to infinity. The threshold is set just at the loudest I sound when playing as hard as I can with a clean signal. Everything above that gets brought right down to that same volume. I don't hear the artifacts that Bongo reported, but then again, this is being played with a band at full volume.