"Does not play well with actives"

[CrispyDelicious]

Ok,

So I'd like someone to clear up the confusion I have regarding effects that don't play well with actives, and buffers and whatnot. I'll address a couple different (but related) issues.

1) It's rather obvious that many pedals do not like a hot active signal fed into them. I am not an electrician, and do not pretend to be one, but I'm thinking this: If there are pedals who can take passive bass signals but not active bass signals, and there are pedals which can take BOTH passive and active signals... Why would anyone design a pedal today that does not work well with active signals - basically, if SOME pedals can take both actives and passives, why not design ALL pedals this way?? Will doing so fundamentally change the pedal itself, or does it simply involve a minor addition to the circut? What's the deal here?

2) You have an active bass, so get a buffer. This seems to be the solution to the problem - buffer your active signal to act like a passive signal. By "buffer" some people refer to dedicated impedence buffers, like the Barge GLZ or BV. Other people will say "so long as you have a buffered pedal (of any sort) before your finicky me-no-like-active pedals, you'll solve the problem". What's the difference between these buffered effects versus a dedicated buffer such as the Barge?

Both of these are frequently discussed here in Effects, but I don't recall a definitive answer for either, so if someone could help me out, I'd love to hear. I'm especially curious as to what effect builders have to say about the design liking/not liking active signals.

[JanusZarate]

1) Part of the problem is headroom. A lot of effects can change character if you modify them throughout for more headroom. Could also mean higher build cost in some cases, I'd imagine, since you'd have to scope out different parts. The other part of the problem is that a buffer - the common solution - is frowned upon by snobby tone purists who are paranoid about losing even the slightest bit of their tone to bypass circuitry.

2) The dedicated buffer allows you to place a buffer circuit before a pedal that doesn't have one, and you usually have the benefit of adjustable impedance - something you have no control over in other pedals.

[JMDT]

Buffers arn't exactly an end all solution. My girlfriend got me a used Messdrive for my birthday with a built in impedance buffer when on. In the chain I had plugged in testing the pedal, I had my Supercollider after the Messdrive. My supercollider works fine with other pedals, but when I kicked on the Messdrive, the Supercollider went completely bonkers and the combo sounded like poop. That was using a passive Jazz bass.

The Supercollider doesn't actives as well as passives, but with a couple knob tweaks works fine. After the Messdrive though, all the nasty sounds possible with an active bass were multiplied 100 fold.

I don't claim to understand how this works, but yeah.

[bongomania]

Tech-nerd distinction time: A "buffer" is specifically a powered device that lowers the output impedance and provides isolation from common ground. The devices that people are using to raise the output impedance for correction into a fuzz pedal are not buffers. However they do not have a proper name, and the word "buffer" is the closest concept in most people's minds, so they call it a buffer.

I know this doesn't matter to most people, but a clear understanding of the terms can help when having a tech discussion about what works and why.

[rcubed]

For the most part, it's not the amplitude of the signal (a hot signal) that is the problem but an impedance mismatch between the source (bass or pedal before) and load (the effect in question).

[Ric5]

Get a bass eq pedal and use it as a db cut going into the effect. Or simply roll back the volume on the active bass.

[CrispyDelicious]

I'd like to expand on #2 as well - Say you put a Barge impedence-matching-thing (not a buffer, apparently ) into your chain. Does this now affect how ALL your pedals respond, or just the ones which were previously unpleasant with actives?

???

[bongomania]

Just had to hit "post" to get that first bit out of the way. Here's the rest of the thought.

Originally Posted by CrispyDelicious

It's rather obvious that many pedals do not like a hot active signal fed into them... If there are pedals who can take passive bass signals but not active bass signals, and there are pedals which can take BOTH passive and active signals... Why would anyone design a pedal today that does not work well with active signals - basically, if SOME pedals can take both actives and passives, why not design ALL pedals this way?? Will doing so fundamentally change the pedal itself, or does it simply involve a minor addition to the circuit?

There are three chief reasons that I can think of. One is that there genuinely are some circuits, namely old-fashioned fuzzes, which simply will not sound good with a low-impedance signal input. It's the nature of the relationship between the components. The second reason is that adding an impedance-adjusting circuit adds to the cost, complexity, and size of a circuitboard and its control pots, especially at the DIY level. Most builders don't want to bother with excess parts, and most buyers don't want to pay for them or have larger pedal housings. The third reason is that most builders are content to have a pedal that works at all, so they just rehash existing circuits with "boutique" components and minor design tweaks. That type of builder does not have the mental power or drive to actually develop a better interface.

Originally Posted by CrispyDelicious

You have an active bass, so get a buffer. This seems to be the solution to the problem - buffer your active signal to act like a passive signal. By "buffer" some people refer to dedicated impedence buffers, like the Barge GLZ or BV. Other people will say "so long as you have a buffered pedal (of any sort) before your finicky me-no-like-active pedals, you'll solve the problem". What's the difference between these buffered effects versus a dedicated buffer such as the Barge?

This is answered by my previous post. If there was ever anyone who said "so long as you have a buffered pedal (of any sort) before your finicky me-no-like-active pedals, you'll solve the problem" (and I'm not sure anyone has said that), they were just wrong and did not know what they were talking about. Note I'm not busting on you, Crispy, just busting on anyone who might have given you that idea. A buffer is not the solution, and "any buffered pedal" is not the solution; in fact they are the problem, as it is the buffer in an active bass that causes the "doesn't play with actives" problem in the first place.

Again, buffers are the cause of the problem.

The circuits in the Barge and other impedance-raising boxes are not buffers. So that's the difference--you need a device which raises the output impedance of your active instrument or pedals feeding into the fuzz.

Personally I'm not convinced raising the impedance is a complete solution, because the current flow and load from passive pickups to an old-fashioned fuzz is very dynamic, changing at different notes and signal levels, for a more dynamic sound which can also be cleaned up nicely by rolling back the volume pot on a passive bass. Whether that matters to any one listener is another story.

Note that all powered-circuit pedals are buffered when engaged. Also not all fuzzes or other dirt effects have this problem of working differently with active or passive basses. The main reason we see this issue crop up over and over again when discussing fuzz pedals is because the majority of fuzzes on the market are just simple variations on the same few ancient circuit designs.

[bigchiefbc]

Originally Posted by CrispyDelicious

I'd like to expand on #2 as well - Say you put a Barge impedence-matching-thing (not a buffer, apparently ) into your chain. Does this now affect how ALL your pedals respond, or just the ones which were previously unpleasant with actives?

???

It should only affect the pedal directly after it, unless the first pedal is true-bypass, and it is currently bypassed. Then the next pedal will see the impedence from the GLZ.

[bongomania]

Every pedal has its own output impedance that is not dependent on the output impedance of the device preceding it.

[bigchiefbc]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Note that all powered-circuit pedals are buffered when engaged. Also not all fuzzes or other dirt effects have this problem of working differently with active or passive basses. The main reason we see this issue crop up over and over again when discussing fuzz pedals is because the majority of fuzzes on the market are just simple variations on the same few ancient circuit designs.

From what I have seen, it seems to be basically limited to the fuzzes that are in some way based on the Fuzz Face. Unfortunately, there are a lot of fuzzes in that group.

[CrispyDelicious]

Originally Posted by bigchiefbc

It should only affect the pedal directly after it, unless the first pedal is true-bypass, and it is currently bypassed. Then the next pedal will see the impedence from the GLZ.

Sorry, yes, I should have specified, "all the pedals AFTER it".

So for every pedal you have that is active-unfriendly, you'd need a buffer for it? Geez.

[CrispyDelicious]

Wow Bongo, excellent explanation!

And yes, I will not deny my complete ignorance on the subject. I like making cool sounds by pressing buttons and twisting knobs, but beyond that, I am as a librarian in a barfight - completely out of my league.

[JanusZarate]

Bongo, thanks for the enlightening posts! Perhaps you should become our "buffer" guru in addition to your wealth of compression knowledge.

[Caca de Kick]

So in a nutshell, would it be better to run the effects through the effects loop (post eq) to deal better with act/pass bass mis-matches?
Most of my pedals do fine, but I've never fallen in love with any overdrive/dist because of the difference affected by which bass I use.

[CamiloDíaz]

Risking public bashing for not using "search", I'll pop in with a related question: Pedals that don't like active, does not like active pickups, or any active signal? Cause my Schecky is a half-breed: passive pups, active two band EQ. I remember trying a Big Muff and hating it big time, not knowing at the time that it might have been a problem regarding the bass active EQ. But my TS9 works fine, considering it's a custom tru bypass bastard. So: any active signal coming out of the bass could potentially sound crappy w/ old inspired fuzzes, regardless of the pickups being passive?

[Darkstrike]

Great informative thread.

Thanks to all involved.

[DosiYanarchy]

I got an impedance re-jigger thing (not a buffer, although i've been refering to it as such in the past) made by Toasted. I feel its a useful addition to the board as i only play active basses and I recently got a Dangerboy Hairy Elephant (woolly mammoth clone). Unfortunately I cant really tell if its having an effect or not as I only play actives (ok I do have a jaguar, but it pretty much sounded the same i think in passive).

I also have a cheap Harley Benton 6-string bass that, regardless of the impedance adjuster, makes my Tonefactor Bass Fuzz Saw go gated at full volume. I mean its kinda cool, but not what i wanted to happen. My assumption is with that, is that the 6-string is just really really hot.

I'm indebted to the information provided in this threat as i've always been curious about the 'wont work with an active' issue.

I guess my worry with the mammoth is: am i missing out on a great pedal (IMO) by using an impedance adjuster box that i cant actually tell if it works or not. And am i not getting the best tones out of other pedals becuse im using an active bass?

By no means am i speaking against Toasted's work. I highly respect the effort and communication from him and i asked for a small impedance adjuster and i got something less than half the size of a wooly mammoth that doesnt even require power. He will take orders.. so if anyone wants one, just PM him.


Also, If i stuck my Boss OC2 back on my board (been missing it anyway) BEFORE the Impedance adjuster, does anyone have any experience on how this may effect my signal/tone/ability to play with other pedals?

sorry to hijack, but i've been curious about this for a while and I'd rather not start a new thread if this is relavent enough.

Thanks

[nad]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Great informative thread.

Thanks to all involved.

Yep. Subscribed for future reference. Cheers.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Caca de Kick

So in a nutshell, would it be better to run the effects through the effects loop (post eq) to deal better with act/pass bass mis-matches?

The effects loop in an amp head is always buffered, regardless of whether you select pre or post EQ. The effects loop "acts the same" as an active bass.

Originally Posted by CamiloDíaz

Pedals that don't like active, does not like active pickups, or any active signal? Cause my Schecky is a half-breed: passive pups, active two band EQ.

Any active device, whether it's the pickups, the preamp, a tuner, or any other powered pedal, will act essentially the same in front of a finicky fuzz.

Originally Posted by CamiloDíaz

I remember trying a Big Muff and hating it big time, not knowing at the time that it might have been a problem regarding the bass active EQ. But my TS9 works fine, considering it's a custom tru bypass bastard. So: any active signal coming out of the bass could potentially sound crappy w/ old inspired fuzzes, regardless of the pickups being passive?

Correct, and the difference between the two pedals you named is one of them is the finicky type of circuit and the other is not.

Originally Posted by DosiYanarchy

I also have a cheap Harley Benton 6-string bass that, regardless of the impedance adjuster, makes my Tonefactor Bass Fuzz Saw go gated at full volume. I mean its kinda cool, but not what i wanted to happen. My assumption is with that, is that the 6-string is just really really hot.

Yes, the signal level is just as much of an issue as the signal impedance. Many people find that just lowering the volume on their high-output bass improves the sound of certain dirt effects.

Originally Posted by DosiYanarchy

I guess my worry with the mammoth is: am i missing out on a great pedal (IMO) by using an impedance adjuster box that i cant actually tell if it works or not. And am i not getting the best tones out of other pedals becuse im using an active bass?

It's not a problem if you like the way it sounds. JMJ has said that he really likes the sound of the Mammoth with an active bass, and he's not the only one. As far as other pedals are concerned, it's typically only an issue with fuzzes.

Originally Posted by DosiYanarchy

If i stuck my Boss OC2 back on my board (been missing it anyway) BEFORE the Impedance adjuster, does anyone have any experience on how this may effect my signal/tone/ability to play with other pedals?

It shouldn't make any noticeable difference.