Doing a dual-output rig

Thunderscreech · #1 01-20-2009, 10:39 PM

So, after engaging in some dangerous thinking, I've decided that I want to try modifying my SX five string for dual output, that is, one jack for the neck and one for the bridge pickups, each with it's own volume and tone control. The blending will occur later on in the chain. The setup I'm thinking of is thus:

Neck: "Clean" side

Bridge: "Dirty" side.

As to what goes between the bass and the signal mixer (a blend pot-in-a-box) I'm not sure of yet. I know that some of you here have something like this, so any input would be appreciated.

smo · #2 01-21-2009, 02:14 AM

Instead of using two jacks - why not use a Stereo jack?

ga_edwards · #3 01-21-2009, 02:42 AM

Because you need a stereo cable and stereo input on what ever you're plugging into.

I'd hunt for a Yamaha Attitude wiring schematic if I were you. There's a push/pull on the bridge volume control that allows you to either output to separate outputs, or mix out of one, which is handy for odd occaisions if you're not using your whole rig, or not using your own rig.

As for amp, and the bit inbetween. You could just go into 2 amps, but it's more stuff to cart around. A mixer like you say would be easier.

Or you could get something like the Line6 X3 live which has 2 indepedant inputs and 2 indepedant signal paths which can be mixed into one output. This would be great if you plan on affected both signals, even if you're just putting a smidgen of compression on the clean signal.

Personally, I decided to save some money and get the Zoom B9.1ut as my main processor (well I say save, it still wasn't cheap). This handle the dirty signal beautifully. I then run the clean signal through a small Korg processor for compression, I could use a stompbox I wanted to I suppose, into the Zooms Aux in. That way both signals are output through the zoom's left mono output to the amp.

Anyhow, if you are planning on keepin the neck signal absolutely clean, then a small mixer will do the job for you. I did try an ABY box which worked fine untill I started putting processors in the chain. It created some kind of inbalance and lost volume on one of the paths. So mixer it def the way to go if you're going to affect one signal with processors you already own.

ZombiCrow · #4 01-21-2009, 06:34 AM

Is there anything special that people do with grounding and switching to make this work better? I've been thinking of going the same way, and I don't mind lugging two amps and two cabs, and a split-channel pedal board. (pics someday)

ihateusernames · #5 01-21-2009, 06:57 AM

IMHO a stereo jack is more practical - just use either a TRS cable and a splitter adapter just before processing, or a TRS cable with built in splitting. I'm curious how this turns our for you, I considered this once and assumed the results wouldn't justify the work done.

Thunderscreech · #6 01-21-2009, 08:00 AM

Stereo is a little bit out of the question. I don't have a stereo cable, and I'd have to build a splitter box to take it from stereo to Mono 1 and 2. Althought, in practicality terms, you're correct. I could wire the bass with T/T/(V+V) with volume in a dual-ganged pot, and still have 3 knobs and wouldn't have to do any of the concentric pot tomfoolery.

Plus, My rig would be something like this:
NECK -> Boss CH-1 Super Chorus -> Digi Bass Multi Chorus -> Mixer
Bridge -> Boss MT-2 Metal Zone -> Metal Muff -> Mixer

Mixer -> BDI21 -> amp.

ga_edwards · #7 01-21-2009, 08:49 AM

If that's the case, you could perhaps get something like the bassbone, or for a bit more money the EBS microbass. Like an ABY box but more versatile and mixable, With these you will be able to eschew the mixer and maybe BDI21 as they act as a mixer/preamp.

My problems with an ABY box was becuase I was using a very cheap Art box with no level knobs, and had a multifx in each signal path creating an impedance mismatch.

(you'll need to double check, but I'm not sure now if the bassbone can mix inputs, I have a feeling it only switches. But I know the EBS definitely can, and it has a tube sim and overdrive. I'm sure there's other ABY/preamps out there but can't think of them off the top of head.)

Thunderscreech · #8 01-21-2009, 10:35 AM

Being on a budget, new gear is kinda out of the question.

Otherwise, the EBS looks like what I'd need.

Maybe a Rolls mini-mixer, just using 2 channels, or the DOD resistance mixer into the BDI21 until I can upgrade to something better.

SteveMcB · #9 01-21-2009, 11:56 AM

I've tried a resistance mixer in various settings, and the tone loss I experienced has lead me to abandon them. I currently use a Behringer MX400 (tiny 4-input active mixer in my biamp effects rig (I split the signal with a peavey BAC-2 and process only the highs, then mix back together with the behringer). It seems sturdy, works well, and costs very little (like about US$20). Would seriously recommend over a passive resistance mixer.

Also, why 2 choruses on the neck and 2 dirts on the bridge? I would have said one of each on each...

Good luck with what sounds like an interesting project.

Steve

aperfectbass · #10 01-21-2009, 11:57 AM

I am doing something almost like this now. I use the word almost very liberally.

A couple questions I have...
Why are you splitting your signal? I know because you want one clean and one dirty signal, but what are you trying to acheive?
Is there a reason you are splitting the signal by pick up?
What amp do you have? If you can bi amp it might work better. I am changing my rig to go bi-amped, and have my clean signal go to different speakers than my dirty signal.

Just an idea of what I'm going now...
Bass->preamp->splitter out1->ch1 power amp ->speaker
Splitter out2->effects->ch 2 power amp ->speaker

Thunderscreech · #11 01-21-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveMcB

I've tried a resistance mixer in various settings, and the tone loss I experienced has lead me to abandon them. I currently use a Behringer MX400 (tiny 4-input active mixer in my biamp effects rig (I split the signal with a peavey BAC-2 and process only the highs, then mix back together with the behringer). It seems sturdy, works well, and costs very little (like about US$20). Would seriously recommend over a passive resistance mixer.

Also, why 2 choruses on the neck and 2 dirts on the bridge? I would have said one of each on each...

Good luck with what sounds like an interesting project.

Steve

The MX400 looks good. The price is right, if nothing else.

On chorus is set to a rotating speaker effect, the other is a normal "chorus" sound.The two dirts are just tentative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aperfectbass

I am doing something almost like this now. I use the word almost very liberally.

A couple questions I have...
Why are you splitting your signal? I know because you want one clean and one dirty signal, but what are you trying to acheive?
Is there a reason you are splitting the signal by pick up?
What amp do you have? If you can bi amp it might work better. I am changing my rig to go bi-amped, and have my clean signal go to different speakers than my dirty signal.

Just an idea of what I'm going now...
Bass->preamp->splitter out1->ch1 power amp ->speaker
Splitter out2->effects->ch 2 power amp ->speaker

I'm bored and want to try something new.

ihateusernames · #12 01-21-2009, 08:06 PM

a boss ls-2 would allow you to mix the two signals into one output. saw one used here for $65 shipped if that's in your budget?

i suggested the stereo cable since using two outputs seems like it would be a pita to me.

Thunderscreech · #13 01-21-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ihateusernames

a boss ls-2 would allow you to mix the two signals into one output. saw one used here for $65 shipped if that's in your budget?

i suggested the stereo cable since using two outputs seems like it would be a pita to me.

Stereo is looking more and more friendly as an option. I'll have to get a cable, but I would anyway with a second output.

What would make this more the better would be a switch from stereo to mono, but that'll be for later.

and 65 is very within my budget.

balzary · #14 01-22-2009, 02:58 AM

I have a stereo jack in my jazz bass. I'm using a insert cable to connect: From Darkstar neck pickup -> tuner-> Ampeg V4 head 1st channel. From bridge pickup -> distortions/synths/octaver/etc. -> Ampeg 2nd channel. This sounds better than combining the signals with a passive mixer before the amp. If I want to use delay I have to put it first before the effects. As mentioned before the problem is to always have your insert cable with you, or just use the neck pickup.

John Wentzien · #15 01-22-2009, 03:09 AM

Billy Sheehan goes into this subject very deeply on his "advaced bass" DVD.

smo · #16 01-22-2009, 05:46 AM

Okay, I was looking at some Ric' info - and this is a cut n paste;

Rickenbacker 4001 bass build date February 1974 in great vintage condition with stereo Rick-O-sound jack which can split the neck and bridge pickups to be run into two amps, using ring/tip stereo jack connectors rather than one mono connector. The splitter kits are widely available and Rick-O-Sound boxes come up on ebay from time to time. With a regular mono cable, the bass connects both pickups to the same amp as it would in a normal guitar

And again;

About Rick-O-Sound:

Rickenbacker's deluxe instruments are equipped with two output jacks. One jack is used with a standard cord, and is simply for normal mono use. The other jack is a Rick-O-Sound effects output, designed for use with a stereo equipped amplifier or with a Rick-O-Sound kit. These two output jacks should never be used at the same time.

Rick-O-Sound can be used to produce special effects and multi-channel output when used with a stereo amplifier, a dual channel amplifier, or two separate amplifiers. Additionally, Rick-O-Sound can produce many other special effects with the use of external effects devices. Different external effects may be run through each amplifier or channel, producing many unique tonal variations.

Plug the Rick-O-Sound kit cable into the Rick-O-Sound output jack on the instrument. Then, plug one standard mono cable into each of the two sides of the Rick-O-Sound kit box. Run each of the two lines into either:

Two separate amplifiers, or each channel of a dual channel amplifier.

Rick-O-Sound provides a choice between three different types of effects at one time. With the pickup selector on the bass pickup, Rick-O-Sound puts out a lush and full bass sound. With the pickup selector in the middle position, a beautiful blend of highs and lows can be achieved, much like a clean chorus effect. The tonal separation is particularly good when using two amplifiers. With the pickup selector in the treble position, Rick-O-Sound produces a bright and full ringing lead tone. An example set-up might have a soft, full jazz sound with plenty of reverb at the bass setting in the amplifier or channel one, a loud and distorted heavy rock sound at the treble position in the amplifier or channel two, and a big pop rock stereo chorus type sound as a combination of the two in the middle position using both amplifiers or channels. Experiment with the endless unique stereo variations which Rick-O-Sound can produce. The results are surprising.

Dig it?

ga_edwards · #17 01-22-2009, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balzary

As mentioned before the problem is to always have your insert cable with you, or just use the neck pickup.

That's why I recommend finding a Yamaha Attitude schematic, as it has a stereo/mono output push/pull pot. This solves the problem if you have to run mono for some reason, you still get both pickups.

Thunderscreech · #18 01-22-2009, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balzary

I have a stereo jack in my jazz bass. I'm using a insert cable to connect: From Darkstar neck pickup -> tuner-> Ampeg V4 head 1st channel. From bridge pickup -> distortions/synths/octaver/etc. -> Ampeg 2nd channel. This sounds better than combining the signals with a passive mixer before the amp. If I want to use delay I have to put it first before the effects. As mentioned before the problem is to always have your insert cable with you, or just use the neck pickup.

But you have 2 amps. I don't

If I had two amps, I'd be doing what you listed.

I guess what i'm doing would be best done with a parallel effects rig...but making the bass run with seperate pickup outputs is that much more fun. I get to play with a soldering iron.

wizay · #19 01-22-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aperfectbass

Just an idea of what I'm going now...
Bass->preamp->splitter out1->ch1 power amp ->speaker
Splitter out2->effects->ch 2 power amp ->speaker

Yeah, thats what im gonna do, with my yamaha attitude. Save some weight and cash using a poweramp.

balzary · #20 01-22-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderscreech

But you have 2 amps. I don't

If I had two amps, I'd be doing what you listed.

I guess what i'm doing would be best done with a parallel effects rig...but making the bass run with seperate pickup outputs is that much more fun. I get to play with a soldering iron.

Actually it is only one amp with two inputs, 70's Ampeg V4. From there it goes to 8x10 and 2x15 cabinets (the same signal to both). Active mixer in the end of the pedal board also works great, so that might be the way to go for you!