Effects Loops...How do they work?

wolf7883 · #1 12-21-2009, 03:33 PM

Aright, So I'm slowly building my board and so far my tone sounds great. Now I'm looking to add some crazier modulation effects in but it seems everything I'm looking at, people say they affect tone big time.

Like
Dunlop 105 Q Bass Wah
or crazier yet- Moog MF 101

how would I use an effect loop to make these a little more friendly to my tone.

Current Pedals: Bass> Whammy>Prunes&Custard>Line6 Uber Metal>Bass Synth Wah (soon)>Boss Digital Delay.

Will I need an effects loop? and if so How do I use it?

fretlessrock · #2 12-21-2009, 03:42 PM

Everything you list "affects tone big time"... that is the point. Effect loops typically have buffered inputs and outputs, isolating your effects from the variables of volume knob and tone knob adjustments on the instrument. The buffering gives you a stable input and output impedance, and a more predictable gain structure, and you might find the effects respond more predictably. Some are inserted before the preamp, some after, some have a switch. Some suck. Some don't.

If your amp has an effects loop, take a pair of instrument cables and run them to the ends of your effect chain: fx send to the input of the first pedal, fx return to the output of the last pedal. Now run another from your bass to the input of the amp/preamp. Now take some time to adjust your setup to the new environment.

Some folks like it, some don't. I use one occasionally, but am now running a Line6 M9 in the fx loop of a Radial Bassbone. Love it. It is a good way to run a complex box like the M9, and I can take the whole thing out of the chain with a single switch.

wolf7883 · #3 12-21-2009, 03:51 PM

right on...Well noted. Iwill try that for sure.

-When I said affects tone big-time, i meant the dry tone. My current pedals don't seem to effect me that bad..

So what if I Ran my current set-up with-say the MF101- in the effect loop? does that even make sense? My effects loop, I'm pretty sure is after the pre-amp & before the amps EQ. So would that mean i'm essentially putting the 101 at the end of my current chain? or would it yield a different result?

fretlessrock · #4 12-21-2009, 04:25 PM

You seem to be thinking more of a true-bypass loop, where you don't use the effect's own bypass (dry tone). The FX loop might help a little because of the buffering, but it won't change the problem of an effect that has an undesirable effect on tone when you bypass it. You can make or buy a true bypass loop box (recent thread on loooper.com iirc) and use that to switch the specific effect or effects in and out of your signal chain.

Putting the 101 in the fx loop: yes it would put it at the "end" of your chain which would be:

bass -> fx -> pre -> fx loop -> power section

It is a good idea to *try everything*. A pet peeve of mine is the number of posts where someone has all of the pieces in front of them and asks "what will this sound like". Not that you are doing that, but experimentation is where it is at. I constantly find setups that I never thought would work but sound great. Try a few different setups and see how you like it.

wolf7883 · #5 12-21-2009, 04:34 PM

O.k. I see... I guess I'll just try a few different setups and If I NEED the true bypass box I'll get it...I do want one but i'm procrastinating it so bad! Thanks for the advice!

bongomania · #6 12-21-2009, 04:50 PM

Here's a test:
Plug all of your effects together in a chain like you'd want to use them normally. Turn them all "off" (bypassed) individually. With the chain hooked up between bass and amp, play for a while with all the effects off. Now unplug your bass from the effects chain, and plug it straight into the amp, and play. Does it sound different? Worse, or better?

If the direct tone is better than the fx chain bypassed tone, then you might want a separate bypass box for at least one of your pedals (though sometimes the problem is cumulative).

For info about using the FX loop on an amp, check out the FAQ linked in my sig for an article about that.

wolf7883 · #7 12-21-2009, 05:07 PM

Currently I'm pretty happy with my tone so far. It's my additions i'll be making that worry me.

The prunes and custard is true bypass. The whammy does not affect me badly at all. Surprisingly neither does the Line6 thats why I stuck with it.

But the Dunlop 105q i hear is a tone vampire...same with the moog LPF. The moog has so many more tweaking options espescially with an expression pedal.. Thats why i want it. But i fear for my tone.

fretlessrock · #8 12-21-2009, 07:09 PM

IMO, Don't worry about the MOOG. The buffer/pre is engaged when it is in bypass, but nothing else is. No bypass or effect loop is going to change the sound either. It is what it is, but it sounds great and Bob Moog didn't design modules to suck tone. I've run the 101 and 103, and had a 105B on loan for a bit. The moogerfoogers sound good in bypass. Never worried about it.

wolf7883 · #9 12-21-2009, 07:35 PM

That is Great news! Feeling very relieved to hear that

Mostly because I don't have to change around what I'm doing...Thanks for your help!

bongomania · #10 12-21-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fretlessrock

IMO, Don't worry about the MOOG. The buffer/pre is engaged when it is in bypass, but nothing else is. No bypass or effect loop is going to change the sound either. It is what it is, but it sounds great and Bob Moog didn't design modules to suck tone. I've run the 101 and 103, and had a 105B on loan for a bit. The moogerfoogers sound good in bypass. Never worried about it.

I disagree completely. The buffer is very colored in tone--if you like the coloration, that's great, but if you don't then it is a big disappointment and hassle. I also fail to see how you think an external bypass loop would not change the situation.

fretlessrock · #11 12-21-2009, 08:22 PM

I meant that a bypass loop wouldn't change the sound of the effect, because wolf was saying "The moog has so many more tweaking options espescially with an expression pedal.. Thats why i want it. But i fear for my tone." which is about the sound with the effect engaged, which is going to sound the same with or without a bypass pedal. Maybe I misread his post. Sure, the moogerfoogers are not 100% transparent in bypass, the tradeoff for not having a switching noise pop or a big impedance change when you engage them, but I wouldn't call them tone vampires. And my feeling is that when you are using:
"Current Pedals: Bass> Whammy>Prunes&Custard>Line6 Uber Metal>Bass Synth Wah (soon)>Boss Digital Delay" it isn't like you have all this pure signal hitting your amp. I deleted a last line of my post because I thought it sounded like I was bashing effect-heavy setups, but IMO when you are playing with those kinds of effects you are accepting a different kind of balance between wet/dry than someone with a single overdrive/dist pedal or a sansamp. As much as I respect your opinions around here, I've been at this game for over 30 years and grew up experimenting with electronics and building much of my gear under the wing of an electrical engineer and electronics educator father. I get it.

bongomania · #12 12-21-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fretlessrock

I meant that a bypass loop wouldn't change the sound of the effect, because wolf was saying "The moog has so many more tweaking options espescially with an expression pedal.. Thats why i want it. But i fear for my tone." which is about the sound with the effect engaged, which is going to sound the same with or without a bypass pedal. Maybe I misread his post.

It was very hard to tell for sure in his first post, but then it looked to me like you and he both sort of cleared it up in posts 3, 4, and 5 that he meant the bypass quality, not the effect tone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fretlessrock

I've been at this game for over 30 years and grew up experimenting with electronics and building much of my gear under the wing of an electrical engineer and electronics educator father. I get it.

Gee, you're so big and hard.

I only disagreed because I thought you were already on the same page with him about the issue being bypass quality, not effect quality.

Bassnut62 · #13 12-22-2009, 12:08 AM

i had a similar problem with EHX micro bass synth (original one); it sucked way too much tone and volume when in bypass mode. I stuck it in its own bypass loop using an excellent true bypass switch by Keeley Electonics - bingo!!! Problem totally sorted and it's opened my eyes to new possibilities with looping too. The Keeley TBS takes minimal space on board and can be run with no power at all, only downside being that with no power, you don't get the A/B lights on the switch.

JimmyM · #14 12-22-2009, 12:13 AM

how do effects loops work? poorly. hate 'em. even for fx that are designed for loops.

wolf7883 · #15 12-22-2009, 04:57 PM

I was asking in regards to bypassed tone because I do play clean. I was wondering if in an effect loop it would clean up my dry tone insteda of running it through these supposed tone suckers

wolf7883 · #16 12-22-2009, 05:00 PM

so as far as true bypass switches go- Are they just switches with an in&out that I plug my offending pedal into?

debassr · #17 12-22-2009, 05:09 PM

I can't believe nobody has mentioned adding a loop blender. It's a pedal that controls the amount of wet/dry signal in your effect loop.

If you're worried about tone suck, try one out. I use a Barge Concepts VB jr w/phase inversion switch but there are many on the market. If you go for a Barge one though, try not to buy it from Barge directly, get it on ebay or something - the Barge people have zero customer service skills and you'll be waiting for months.

wolf7883 · #18 12-22-2009, 08:29 PM

Cool, dude...that sounds like the best option yet! I would LOVE to be able to have a blend of Wet and dry.

wolf7883 · #19 12-22-2009, 08:34 PM

So I'm looking into that VB Jr. and I have no idea where that would go.

Do my effects NEED to be in an Effect Loop with that to work?

(God, I feel like a total noob again) I thought I was getting somewhere but every answer yields more questions!!:

fretlessrock · #20 12-23-2009, 04:27 PM

Bypass boxes have an input, output, loop out and loop in. The Barge VB Jr uses an active circuit (op amp based) to handle buffering and blending, and probably switching. Some jut use the stomp switch to handle the routing and switching of a status LED.

This has nothing to do with an effects loop like you find on an amp or a preamp (like the Bassbone that I use). You can run all of this on your pedalboard bewtween the bass and the amp. You put the switcher in line, and use two shorty cables to connect the effect(s) to the loop out and loop in jacks.

When the bypass loop has the loop engaged the signal flow looks like:

Bass -> Bypass In -> Loop Out -> Effect In -> Effect Out -> Loop In -> Bypass Out

When the loop is disengaged the signal is just routed from the Bypass In to the Bypass Out.

Easier to figure out if Barge showed the back panel with the jacks!