Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by Derelict78

this thread needs more sounds

Of what part? I've already posted fifteen tracks here.

The thread may need more sounds but the thread's author needs more time to do it!

If you'll read post #252 there's an entry regarding that issue.

Thanks.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by JetBlackJazz

Well I see what you're saying with the limitations of the ART, but I took those into account. All I need is 2 channels, I don't need any boost, and I prefer the passive setup. I have enough clean volume from my TC Electronic to compensate, as I can play in my church's cavernous sanctuary at gain-5, master-3. Thanks for showing your opinion and concern though.

You do show confidence, though, that the LS2 is a better piece of gear for the money. Convince me it's better, I'd like you to.

The LS-2 IS a two channel.

Convince you? Are you kiddn' me? Y'mean the 4-acre long post with alll of the details and resources about the LS-2 weren't enough? The videos on You Tube aren't enough? Then it isn't gonna happen!

Hey, to each his druthers. If you prefer the ART, then go for it! I was simply offering the details and differences between the two. In the end, it's your money, it's your bass rig, and it's your preferences. Who am I to tell anyone any different?

The purpose of anything I post is not to "convince" anyone of anything. It's just to offer my own set of experiences. If those experiences somehow help someone, SCORE! If someone disagrees, no problem! It's not like I am getting any kind of compensation or "payment" for posting all of this stuff. It's just me, talking my head off about what I do with my gear, my bass, my time, and my money. I have nearly 38 years of experience with audio processing and playing music, using synths, playing Hammonds, playing live, recording, building and designing audio processors, and just basically making music.

All I'm doing here is releasing the accumulation of experiences. You may either adopt some of the things I'm playing with, or not. If you have something you wish to discuss or add, or even disagree with, please ..... feel free!

But what I'm not here doing is trying to get anyone to do things as I do. What you do is 100% you own business and your election.

And if someone wants more/different audio demos, be specific about what it is you may want to hear. This thread covers A LOT of ground, so please be specific about what it is you wish to hear so that I can focus time and effort to your request more efficiently.

To thuh lumbah yahd! (that's a Young Frankenstein quote).

[Derelict78]

yeah sorry bout that I just checked out your soundcloud page and I DIG!

[Flux Jetson]

Ok, so let's keep in mind my main objective here. It is to design a bass guitar SYSTEM that will suit my own needs without having to re-purchase and re-purchase bass after bass, amp after amp, cab after cab. Little things like rack processors and stompboxes are like salt and pepper. They are things you will always likely change to suit your whims and present needs. So I'm not too concerned about specifically nailing down precise pieces. I'm more concerned with creating a system that is flexible enough to adopt any of those "seasonings" to create the bass sounds I will need.

The two main components that have made giant leaps in this quest have been the Mackie FR1400i and the two Carvin bass cabs. The Mackie could be replaced with ANY other 2-channel power amp and have absolutely no consequences on the overall usability and sound of this rig. The cabs could also be replaced with nearly any other ported 2x10 and sealed 4x10. The main idea here is that I've added those three main items to the "forumla".

Another main beam in the superstructure is the parallel four channel processing setup, which allows me great freedom and tons of processing power. Again, the actual processors used are pretty much moot. All of that depends largely on whatever goals I'm attempting to achieve, which WILL change over time.

Another excellent addition to the superstructure is the two channel amp splitter (aka distributor) which helps to create whatever amp channel mix is needed to create whatever sounds I'm seeking.

The 2-channel bass and the footswitchable pickup mixing setup is simply "seasoning". It really is a separate issue altogether from the main set of goals here. But it's also part of the experimental process to create my ultimate setup. The 2-channel bass and it's pickup mixing rig is more of a reference to be used in the ultimate creation of what I want out of an "ultimate bass" to go along with the "ultimate amp". I'm working on some fresh ideas (fresh for ME) with my bass that will move me along at getting closer to my tonal preferences.

So remember kids, this is about experimenting with various things, to arive at a focused destination. I have learned this much so far .....

THE AMP SYSTEM:
** A plain, high powered, power amp that offers a lot of power and at least two channels of discrete amplification.
** A low end cab.
** A midrange cab.
** An output mixer that allows mixing/blending of those two amp channels.
** Insert points within the two amp channels.
** A preamp that consists of at least four parallel processing chains (independent In/Out switchability would be ideal).

THE BASS GUITAR:
This is trickier. I stil have some serious modifications that I've yet to employ on my Squier Vintage Modified 70s Jazz Bass. The next set of efforts will be directed at adding a 3rd pickup, placed near the "24th fret" position. Much in the manner of parallel/series pickup routings and individual pickup processing needs to be done as well. Heck I still need to select which pickup I'll be placing in that 3rd position. So there's some big ground yet to cover there.

ULTRA-RIG:

So I think I'm pretty well set up with the basic structure of the preamp and amp system by now. So if I could wave a wand and produce my "ultimate bass amp" it would have...

** INPUT: An input stage, with resettable input impedances and input gains. This stage can be pretty much covered with rack or stombox effectors.

** PREAMP: A preamp with the four channel parallel sends-returns but make each set of sends/returns optionally footswitchable in and out. So basically "four FX loops" all in parallel with their own SEND and RETURN level controls, that get mixed to a mono output signal, and sent to the power section.

** POWER STAGE: A two channel output splitter that has it's own FX Loops on each channel. Each of the two FX Loops would be sent to the two amp/cab channels.

And a replaceable 2-channel power section (pretty much like what I already have, a rack mountable solid state power amp of choice). Powering two separate types of cabs, in my case I've come to prefer a ported cab and a sealed cab. The ported cab for making deep low end sounds, the sealed cab for producing the "voice". That defined midrange sound. The sealed cab also shored-up the low end as well, if needed.

THAT DOES IT!

So, I've gone this far, so far. The attention is now placed on the bass itself. Everything from this point on is focused on getting the actual tone I want. I have learned how to create the "machine" to build my prefered soundset, I now must use that machine to learn what to install within it that will work in concert with the bass I will ultimately create from Warmoth components. The Squier J is just the research tool, a means to an end.

In the end .... I'll have this amp-system and this bass that can be easily reconfigured to create whatever bass sound I could ever want. I'll never have to spend several thousand dollars on some new bass amp, or on some new bass, hoping like hell that either (or both) will produce the sounds I need. All I'll ever have to spend is far smaller amounts to purchase some new "seasoning" to be used by The System.

I'm calling "success" at this point. The basic amp-machine is designed. Now it's time to focus on creating a more flexible bass guitar. Once that is done, then it's time to begin using both the bass and the bass-amp to make the tone I want.

[JetBlackJazz]

*internet applause!*

[howardcano]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

The next set of efforts will be directed at adding a 3rd pickup, placed near the "24th fret" position. Much in the manner of parallel/series pickup routings and individual pickup processing needs to be done as well.

Hey Flux,

You may find a mini-humbucker from an archtop guitar useful for experimenting with the third pickup, before committing to any mods on your bass. It might be thin enough to fit under the strings with no hacking necessary. Maybe hold it in place with double-sided foam tape? (Yes, I realize it's not for bass. The pole piece arrangement may give uneven levels across the strings, or it may not be wide enough.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHROME-MINI-...item5d36dad40e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-MINI-HU...item2ea72dbecb

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by howardcano

Hey Flux,

You may find a mini-humbucker from an archtop guitar useful for experimenting with the third pickup, before committing to any mods on your bass. It might be thin enough to fit under the strings with no hacking necessary. Maybe hold it in place with double-sided foam tape? (Yes, I realize it's not for bass. The pole piece arrangement may give uneven levels across the strings, or it may not be wide enough.)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHROME-MINI-...item5d36dad40e

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GOLD-MINI-HU...item2ea72dbecb

Hmmm .... sound feasible! I may take that avenue of approach as one of the experiments.

What I had started thinking through was cutting an oversized hole in the bass body in the "there-abouts" F24 position. Then add threaded bosses about every half inch along each side of the routing. Then make 2-inch wide aluminum ~adaptor~ plates that would allow fitting up of various pickup types. The spaced-apart threaded bosses will allow me to move that adaptor plate forward and backward a little bit to see what position works out the best for whatever pickup I have mounted in the adaptor plate. I may even be able to get away with just drilling holes in the body and using wood screws without going with the whole threaded boss setup.

2 inch x 1/8 inch aluminum strip is readily available at Home Depot or Lowes, it comes in 36 inch lengths and costs about $15 bucks per length. One 36 inch strip would provide materials for roughly 10 to 12 of those pickup adaptor plates. I really only need about 3 or 4 of the adaptor plates (J-bass pickups, soapbar/Bartolini pickups, and humbucker pickups .. maybe one ot two others -- P-bass pickups use up about 2.25" of ~width~ so I'd probably just not use any type of plate at all and leave the hole showing if I try a P-bass pickup way up there). It's the exact same stuff I used on my modular synth as the center strip .....



Y'know, I may not need the adaptor plates at all, just cut a medium sized "bathtub" so I can move pickups fwd and bckwd along the scale and not monkey with cutting out those plates at all. I mean, this IS prototyping, after all.

Once I am happy with whatever pickup setup, I can transfer that data to a nice Warmoth body of choice. I really really really wish that Warmoth still offered the Explorer body shape, but Gibson has leveled a lawsuit against any/all body builders against using that shape (as well as the SG, and T-bird). So Warmoth no longer offers the Explorer shape. Take a look .....

http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies...rect.aspx?i=27

Story of my life..... to little, too late.

So I may go with a buck-standard J-bass so I can use the Marcus Miller pickguard (nice and big to allow for ~stuffs~ inside the body).

[howardcano]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

Y'know, I may not need the adaptor plates at all, just cut a medium sized "bathtub" so I can move pickups fwd and bckwd along the scale and not monkey with cutting out those plates at all.

Sounds a bit like the Westone Rail!

Maybe you could make your own body, and arrange all three pickups so they can slide back and forth.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by howardcano

Sounds a bit like the Westone Rail!

Maybe you could make your own body, and arrange all three pickups so they can slide back and forth.

I'm just so horrible with wood! I've often wondered if I could get some guitar-Jedi to cut me out an Explorer body or a shape something ~like~ it. Have them do all the basic cavity routing, the neck pocket, etc. I will admit that I have toyed with the notion, Warmoth sells a block of wood with the neck pocket already pre cut. They'll even do the bridge routing and drilling, as well as pickup routs if you want them too. Al you have to do is cut out the basic body shape. Hmmmmmm..... thinking ... thinking (trying not to hurt myself or strain me brains!)

I've thought of adopting that Westone rail type rigging, just never did follow up with any designs. The ultimate would be two sets of rails that would have like two or three two-coil pickups, like p-bass pickups, that could slide anywhere you want them. So two pickups for the bass strings and two pickups for the treble strings, all on their own sliding rails so they could be placed nearly anywhere along the tracks. I know the trebles would sortof ~hit~ the bass pickups if you tried to put them side by side, but with two pickups on each rail-set you could easily offset them. Then 4 push-push bottons to either engage or bypass each pickup so you could turn any one of them on or off at will, sortof like the Music Man Big Al has. I use those same push-push "pop-up" switches on my Shredbilly Tele as coil taps for both pickups.




Push them down and they stay down.....






Push them down again, and they pop-up all by themselves. SUPER easy to use while playing.

[Flux Jetson]

I could go with the Warmoth "Chunk 'O Bass" slab and have them pre-rout everything ...





I did their ~virtual build~ thing and it came out to $123 for an alder one with P/J pickup routs, the neck pocket, and a rear-rout control cavity.

Another way to go might be their JAZZMASTER 4 bass body. They'll do a reverse-P pickup too. This body came out to $185 after I got done selecting options (no, I did not buy it, I was just making wishful). Body weighs 5-pounds even. A Jazz bass body without paint weighs just about the same.






I configured this pickguard using their pickguard selector page. I love the red outline, and the controls would be really nice for parallel/series other-worldlyness and other switchable options.



The black pickguard/red outlines looks really great on unfinished/oiled alder. My Shredbilly is like that.



So, either a ready-to-go unfinished body or go with the Chunk 'O Bass setup. Hmmm .... the chunk is pretty appealing, I could cut it to any shape that suits me.

Hmmm ..... thinking .... thinking.

WAIT A MINUTE! I'm getting way ahead of myself here. I still need to goof with the 3rd pickup setup before I can go spendings ofs the moneys on an entirely new body here!

ARG! Dang that ~reality~ stuffs!!!

[Flux Jetson]

Two days ago I had taken my studio totally apart to move the Hammond to a better spot. Everything got moved around to new places, much of the patch-wiring got undone. I already had the entire rig all charted out and diagramed before the teardown and rearrangement.

I rewired it today, and accidently connected something ~differently~ without realizing it. I thought I repatched everything identally the same as it was prior to the reshuffle. Something significant was changed!

Holy Radioactive Coyotes Batman! Another happy accident. I am closer to ~the sound~ that I've been chasing than I have EVER been at this point. It sounds INCREDIBLE now!!! Super punchy, tons of "brown sound" voicing, and right-on-the-money frequency centers for the midrange voice.

Back to the studio, I have to finish taking notes about the new routing and diagraming everything as it ended up ... it is phenominal! And I think (I think) that things are about to get quite a bit simpler.

Damn ... AGAIN with the "happy accident" thing!

Gotta jet, notes to take, pics to shoot.

[JetBlackJazz]

God, I wish I was you...just kidding. I just wish I had your stuff

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by JetBlackJazz

God, I wish I was you...just kidding. I just wish I had your stuff

Give it another 36 years ....

[Derelict78]

How mobile is this setup?

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Derelict78

How mobile is this setup?

Very! It rotates all the way around the earth's axis every day.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by Derelict78

How mobile is this setup?

Originally Posted by bongomania

Very! It rotates all the way around the earth's axis every day.

It is actually relatively very small. If you were to use the synth modules as I have the entire thing fits easily in one 6U rack (less the power amp). If you use Boss LS-2s, then it takes up two, perhaps three ~spaces~ on your pedalboard. The actual effectors or EQs that you elect to use with it are another issue, but that is totally up to you.

The synth modules take up 5U of rack space, plus some sort of power conditioner (like the Furman that I use). So grand total of 6U.

This picture is of my own setup, I use a 12U rack by choice so that I can "rear wire" the POD Pro, the APHEX 204, and the RANE PE-17 parametric EQ, along with the power conditioner and the patch bay. But as you can clearly see the modular synth modules only take up 5U.



Again, you can do this same type of setup using stomp boxes if you are a pedalboarder. The Boss LS-2 is a perfect replacement for the synth modules. I use the synth modules due to my usage of the 2-channel bass mods that allow me to footswitch between two separate pickup blends instantaneously and silently. It also allows me to process each pickup with it's own FX and processors before those two chains are mixed together. But that portion of the system is totally optional. If you have a ~nomal~ bass you can eliminate four of the synth modules.

So as you can see, this system .... like ANY system .... can be as complex or as simple as you desire.

I think the main things that make it better (for me) than buying a dedicated bass amp are the dual amp channels, and the use of two different cabs. Add in the 4-channel parallel processing chain (to actually "build" one's own preamp out of selected separate FX and processors) provide crazy flexiblity. Like I've said before, it is like being able to remove/replace any single stage of a standard bass amp. Like removing/replacing just the bass knob, or just the input gain knob, or inserting an FX loop between the midrange knob and the treble knob. There are "FX Loops" all over this thing. There is an insert point between every single stage. So imagine a bass amp that had a set of Send and Return jack between every single knob, and not only that but each knob is removable and replaceable. And not only that but you can totally re-arrange how the knobs are configured as well. It creates the ulimately flexible bass amp.

AND .... it can be eaily used for ANY other instrument. I have had excellent success using it for my guitars and my synths, even my Hammonds. It is the ultimate amp rig.

It can be reconfigured to work for any number of things, but orbiting around the Earth isn't one of them.

[bongomania]

Just so you know, my jest was not meant meanly. In fact I have gigged similar rigs in the past, and the only reason I don't talk about it more is I have no pics or recordings from that time.

[Derelict78]

I was not mocking either just curious. My setup is complicated and a pain to setup and tear down. When I get my board cleaned up ill have to post a pic. And some audio.

[Flux Jetson]

Here's a few ways to use the Boss LS-2 to provide parallel processing. There are some disadvantages to using these over the synth module setup, but there are also some powerful advantages as well. The fact that the LS2 is footswitchable, and that it has a number of ways to configure it and also a number of ways to exploit the footswitch give it abilities that the synth module setup just cannot do without adding ... you guessed it ... an LS2 or two.

So for pedalboarders, the LS2 can be used in many different ways, and still be able to use the most powerful aspects of the system I've adopted (parallel processing and double amp/double cab sound output).

Here is the basic 2-channel parallel FX Loop mode. For many (most?) players this alone might prove to be plenty powerful enough for the essentials. For instance, any type of distortion or fuzz unit may be used in one of the loops .... ANY type, that means stuff made for guitars or basses. You're not limited to distorters that have "blend" controls on them to preserve your low end, the LS2 provides the blend control. So you can add EQs, distorters, modulators, and other FX that would normally suck the bottom right out of your tone. The LS2 will mix the two parallel loops with your dry signal (using the provided level control knobs on the LS2 to adjust the mix).



(below) Now, this is two LS2s in series. So what you have here is a parallel / series setup. There are two parallel Fx Loop processors that are in series with each other. Again, add mixing/blending capability as well as the power of footswitching ability to bypass/engage any of the FX Loops and this becomes a pretty freaky setup. I added the 3rd LS2 at the end of the chain to demonstrate how one may be used for the dual-amp/dual-cab setup that I have grown so fond of.

And don't forget that you can put as many FX in any of the loops as you wish.



Here's using two LS2s as a parallel stack. One of them is actually patched in to one of the parallel FX Loops of the other one, which makes it just another parallel processor.



I haven't even scratched a dent into the possibilites of these things with my silly little diagrams here. I'm just trying to show how to arrive at like-results to the rack mounted stuff I am currently using, so that if anyone is interested in trying some of these parallel routing ideas and/or creating their own "ultimate bass amp" they can see that they're not roped into investing into rack stuff to do so. And entire bass preamp could easily be made from nothing but stompboxes if the LS2 is used in the rigging. So just a well outfitted pedalboard, and a power amp .... done.

Two of these LS2s would provide any pedal freak with more routing and processing power than he/she could probabaly ever use. They can also be combined with regular old "true bypass loopers" to create even more routing chaos.

Try to think past simply using the LS2 as a simple "bypass looper", it is so much more powerful than that. It offers routings that no "bypass looper" can do, and it is also buffered with a 1megOhm input impedance (which passive basses just LOVE) and it also has a 20db clean booster on each loop. So it could be used for just that function alone if you wished. You could have 3 separate signal levels (dry, boost 1, and boost 2) to drive your amp or other gadget into overdrive. You could put something like a Tech 21 VT Bass on the output side of it and use the LS2 to kick the VT Bass in the nuts TWICE. Add the preset ability of the VTB Deluxe and you'd have any number of great tones available.

And, open up your mind to the use of guitar-type overdrives/fuzzes/distortions, with the blend ability of the LS2 you have the entire FX world available to you. No longer are you stuck with bass-specific FX (which usually seem to be more expensive for some reason). You find an older POD on Ebay and you have everything the POD has to offer in the manner of amp models and overdrives, and you still preserve your low end. Holy Cats .... an LS2, with a VT Bass DLX, and a $100 POD from Ebay, you would have an entire PLANET of drive and amp tones.

Most of the time these LS2s go for about $75 shipped/new if you sniff around enough. My modular synth modules run around $90 to $100 each, just to offer a comparison.

The LS2 and using nothing but stompboxes is TOTALLY "modular" thinking. It may even be better than the stuff I'm presently using. If it is, I'll certainly end up adopting it! It is just as "modular" as using the modular synth modules. You can assemble an entire rig out of separate modules (pedals) that are totally replaceable, repatchable, and repairable as individual modules (if one goes down the entire system is not down with it, unlike a "normal" bass amp would be if one single component or stage went agoof. The entire amp is down at that point and must be repaired. If one stompbox goes down, just repair it or replace it. In the meantime it most likely can be bypassed or patched around it so you're still up and runnin'!)

And, just like building up a modular synth, you can build-up your custom bass amp one module (pedal) at a time as your money situation permits. Start with a bass cab, a power amp, and one DI-preamp thingy (the Hartke DI for under $100 new, or a used VT Bass, or maybe a Tech 21 Bass Driver DI, or ???) and you are up and flying! Then begin adding more components to your ~modular bass amp~ as money allows.

Way cheaper, way easier to afford than trying to cough up $2k or so for a good bass amp. And that way you don't end up buying some "interim" (aka "cheapass") bass amp just to get you by until you can afford a "good" one. You modular bass rig will simply continue to get better and better with each new ~module~ you add to it as your finances allow.

So ok, there's the stompbox version of this parallel processing/dual amp/dual cab setup.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by Derelict78

I was not mocking either just curious. My setup is complicated and a pain to setup and tear down. When I get my board cleaned up ill have to post a pic. And some audio.

Dude, I didn't mean ~you~ I meant Bongomania. And as it turns out I was wrong about how I took his comments.

Bongomania, my honest apologies. Seriously, sorry about that. Chalk it up to "the danged internet" and not being able to properly understand what folks are getting at sometimes.

My bad ... totally 100% my fault. And once again, sorry for the shytty attitude. I'll try to keep a more positive outlook from here on out.

Hope I didn't offend either of you. I can be an arrogant prick sometimes if I let myself. Sincerest apologies.

Fluxhole.