Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig.

[Flux Jetson]

PREFACE: To assist people that may be interested in more of what's going on with the entirety of this project, here's a list of links to some subtopics so that if someone has a question or wishes to locate other info they can more easily find information. I'll post cross links to related projects at the top of each new page, as well as links to specific pages within this thread to help readers locate various specific topics I've covered. So my first post of each new page will have links to help readers both new and old. Then after this index posting, the discussion will continue on with whatever was already in progress.

And to my subscribers, thanks or following along.

LINK INDEX: Links to relevant information.


Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 10
- This covers adding new modules to the system that add splitting capability.
- The footswitch operated pickup-mix switcher.
- Tri-Amping.

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 11
- This covers filters and EQs.
- RANE PE-17 seven band Parametric EQ (this is easily the best PEQ I have ever used).
- Rolls RPQ160B six band Parametric EQ.
- Presonus EQ3B 1/3rd rack three band Parametric EQ.
- Highly modified "cocked" Cry Baby wah used as a band-pass filter.
- Setting up 4channel parallel sends and returns for parallel FX processing.
- Rolls MX14B as an alternative that can be used to parallel process FX and other effectors.

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 12
- This covers the use of guitar overdrives used on one channel of a parallel two channel bass amp system (aka "biamped" .. but not really, no crossovers used) to simulate the use of a guitar amp for clarity and midrange voicing.
- The notions of using algorithms in your thought processes.
- Introduction of using heavy processing on a per-pickup basis for 2-channel basses (like the one in this thread).

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE - 13
- Introduction to the Boss LS-2 as an alternative to using high-end parallel routing gear.
- Nested FX chains in parallel FX Loops.

Experimental Fully Modular Bass Rig. - PAGE 14
- Introduction of the first ideas about the X-Bass.
- Deep-diving into using the Boss LS-2 for parallel and series/parallel processor routings.

X-Bass - Experimental 3 Pickup Bass
- This link takes you to the almighty "X-Bass" project thread. This is a thread about bass modifications that are aligned with what I'm doing in this thread. This bass will be used in conjunction with this "X-Rig".

2 channel modification on a J (many pictures).
- This link takes you to a detailed thread about the same set of mods I did to that same bass, it just has more details than the posts I did on page 4 of this thread.

Show us your 3 pickup basses!
- This is a multipage thread about exactly what the title says it is about. Started by Doner Designs.

A Rick 4003 neck pickup on a P Bass?
- Yet another relevant thread that addresses much of my aspirations that this thread is here is addressing.

Can P-pickups be mixed brand-to-brand?
- And finally, this thread was informative. Some of the information in it may end up being useful for things I may end up adopting on the X-Bass.

Adding a Guitar Amp to produce clarity and mid-voicing.
- This is exactly what it sounds like it is. Several pages of people's own ideas and experiences about using a guitar amp to add voicing and clarity.

Cygnus midi bass pedal conversion project-1
- This link takes you to another project that is connected to this one, it's a midi conversion of a set of vintage Hammond bass pedals.

Cygnus Midi Bass Pedal Conversion Project 2 (for her).
- This link takes you to a second midi bass pedal project, just like the one above but with a different set of Hammond bass pedals, that my wife will use with her 1977 Rhodes Stage 73 electric piano.

(coming soon)
- This link takes you to my SoundCloud page where you will find recorded demos of sounds and FX-y stuff I did using this modular bass rig.

We now return to our regular scheduled programming.

Thanks!

[Flux Jetson]

NOTE: I've moved this discussion from the X-Bass - Experimental 3 Pickup Bass thread to this thread so that the other thread doesn't get boinked out of "BASSES" over to the "AMPS" forum. This discussion is more appropriate for this thread. Thanks!

Originally Posted by KeithAlanK

Thanks for the info.

I "get" your signal flow and the reasons behind it, having read the other threads, and completely agree that it's a superior way to go for those inclined towards the complex.

My own immediate bi-amp future (and past) are a bit more traditional, in that I have no intent at this time to mod my basses for two or more outputs, but things change in our quest for tone.... Pretty much just lows, highs + full-range direct ASAP. (I reserve the right to add a guitar amp with all the attendant noises later. Sometimes I miss playing guitar, and my band is but a three-piece).

Just scored a Peavey MAX preamp today for $85--the same model I borrowed with great results in the studio. It's 2 channels, tube and solid state, fully footswitch selectable and combinable, with a built-in crossover and EFX loop and a good XLR out (compared to other brand's direct outputs, which often suck in my experience).
I'll be using it full-range for now, until I can get a good deal on a stereo power amp and another 410 cabinet.

One of the best parts of your system is that you mix it down for FOH. Very wise, and pretty much mandatory. It's just too far outside the experience and comfort level of most live engineers to deal with multiple bass signals effectively.
I plan to mic my cabs with large diaphragm condensers while also running the direct out, then using a mixer onstage to insert compressors and combine into a single send for FOH. Since I need the mixer to combine a SubKick with a close-mic for bass drum anyway, it's not much more trouble to get complex with my own signal.

For local club gigs, our engineer is a bassist who I've been mixing for many years so giving him 3 bass channels isn't a big deal, but we've started touring a bit and on big multi-band shows, snake and board channels are precious.

The main problem I foresee is monitoring my mix onstage without having to make my way out in front of the stacks. Perhaps a high quality powered speaker in front of me instead of a vocal wedge? I have lots of in-ear monitor stuff to play with, but would rather not.
Hopefully I won't get blank stares when asking about the subwoofer crossover point, in order to better tailor my system to the PA on any given night.


Thanks for the discussion. I'm still processing all the options you've presented me (and others) in these threads.
Hopefully someone else will help get the topic back to new ideas on the X-Bass so that project moves forward and stays in the bass section, after all this amp talk.

Keith

Great post Keith. One thing to keep in mind is that my 2-channel bass is an option. If you simply ~remove~ all of STAGE-1 (input and pickup mixing/switching) and use STAGE-2's input point as your bass's input point, you're golden.

Any of this stuff I'm posting in this thread is adoptable in all or part. It isn't a requirement that the entire setup be employed for any one portion to work.

The main issue with the entire thing is parallel processing. It offers the bass player enormous amounts of liberty when it comes to FX choices. The entire guitar-stompbox world is opened up and fully available to the bassist the millisecond that parallel processing is worked in to their setup.

That's kinda why I promo'd the Boss LS-2 so hard. It's a $75 ticket that gets you in to the parallel processing club. Once admitted, every single effector made for guitars is now fair game for the bass player. You are no longer limited to using only bass-specific overdrives, distortions, and/or anything else that has a "blend" control to allow the low end to survive processing. The LS-2 becomes the blend control.

In my case, I went with modular synth stuff because what is available through that avenue is vast and powerful, and packaged in a very manageable format (RACK!). I have 4 channels of parallel sends and 8 channels or parallel returns, just by using only TWO modules! And, not only that, each channel has it's own level controls on each end of the loop!

I'm happy to learn that what I am posting in this thread and the X-Bass thread is allowing others, such as yourself, to think beyond the same-old same-old. There are thousands that will say that what I am doing is excessive and unnecessary, and to simply "just go get a Mesa bass amp and a boutique 1x12 two-way bass cab, it will do everything you will ever need!". Um .... no it won't.

I've already been there/done that .... too many times. Bass amp/cab manufacturers have taken enough of my money. This system is my stance against the "provided norms". It is easily the most flexible, most powerful (in terms of ability to deal with nearly any given situation), and most easily reconfigurable bass system I have ever owned. And it is a good deal less expensive, as well as more easily reached than anything I have ever owned.

Glad to hear what I am doing is inspiring you, and others. Other than being a photo-record of my projects, inspiring others is the entire point.

Fluxation.

[Jawbone]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

To satisfy any other curious folks, please understand that when I get this settled down and completed the entire synth module bass rig will be housed in the 12U rack on the right of this picture ...



There will be three or four controller pedals as well. And of course some stompboxes and the Line 6 M13.

As for the big synth, it only weighs 35 pounds and is very solidly packaged. This stuff isn't "studio only" fragile poop. That's why I put five coats of truck bedliner on the synth cab, and mounted the power supply on 2x2 blocks of wood so it wouldn't jar loose.

Setup takes minutes. The foot controllers will all be mounted on a single pedalboard. Four cords, foot controller setup is done. Plug the bass rack into wall power, plug the bass into the rack, plug the rack into the Mackie, plug the Mackie into the two bass speaker cabs. Connect the pedalboard (with stomps and the M13) to the rack. Bass rig is 100% set up. 3 minutes?

Unfold the X-Stand, put the synth on it. Plug in main power and connect one midi cord from the controller keyboard to the synth cab. Run audio outs to PA. Synth is 100% set up. 3 more minutes?

Tune my bass - then help the drummer finish setting up.

I plan on playing out only like 6 times per year. It's not like I'm touring or anything.

12U aka genz benz speaker cab? Just noticed their logo on the side.

[Flux Jetson]

Yup, old Genz Benz racks, I've not seen any more like them since I bought them a number of years ago. I have a 12U and an 8U. All solid plywood, no particle board.

[Flux Jetson]

I'll be trying a few new ideas in a few days ... I've been stupid-busy the last coupld of weeks. But I have some new things to share, so I'll be adding substantial information soon. I just got in some additional pickups for the 2-channel X-Bass, so once I get them installed that bass will have four Duncan Design pickups in it.

More to come ... Stay tuned .. same bat time, same bat channel.

[Flux Jetson]

Well, I tried some other setups over the last few days. It seems that this rig will be getting simpler yet, which was the entire purpose in the first place. The main idea was to construct an oversized slab of granite from which to carve out a useful work. If any hopes were realized from that effort, then that huge monolith would be reduced to the smallest system possible to arrive at my main goals.

I still think that having a parallel FX stage is without any doubt very important. That much, I have learned. So the four channel parallel FX router is still in the game.

But, I have learned a few more tricks to obtain the "brown sound" bass tone, and it required a lot less gear than I had begun the tests with. As I type I can't help but be aware of this looming feeling of having spoken too soon here, so I am reluctant to say that I am doubtlessly on the correct pathway. But I will go ahead and say this much ....

I've discovered that creating the basic Geddy-type sound can be pretty well achieved by using some agressive EQing before the signal is piped into the parallel FX stage. And it doesn't seem to be super complicated (so far).

Now, see there? There's that feeling of having spoken too soon again. That little voice on my shoulder telling me that "wait! You're FAR from ~there~ yet! You've yet to discover something important that's still to come!".

Ugh .....

And here I thought I was ready to spill the contents of my recently taken notes on ya.

Fooey!

Well, let me leave it at this .... I've discovered some REAL GEMS in the POD Pro ... some of the guitar amp models are VERY WELL SUITED for bass processing. The "Brit Blues" model has a very VERY strong bass and midrange presence. So it can be easily used all by itself as a bass preamp to create any number of bass tones with no added processing to make it ~good~ for bass. Couple that with some great sounding EQ processing from a single Rane PE-17 on just one output of the POD Pro and I get some excellent EXCELLENT rock-bass sounds with all of the low end I could ever want.

So I think that's ok. I'll leave it at that. There's a great possibility that anyone with a regular bass and a regular bass amp could get super-muscular rock bass tones with just a POD and a decent parametric EQ, and a rather plain power amp. No paralleling tricks, no double amp tricks, no weird-ass 2-channel bass mods. Just a Squier VMJ with stock strings, a POD, a parametric EQ, a power amp and a bass cab (I've been using JUST the ported 2x10 lately .... good gawd is that thing potent and loud!).

Back to it then .....

Cheers.

[driftingupward]

I have come to somewhat the same conclusion on the POD front. I keep trying to get rid of my PODXTLive because it is so huge and I'm slowly getting separate pedals to do the jobs of the effects on it, but it is pretty hard to get by the use of pressing a single pedal to change to a different preset with different amp models and eq setups.

It seems like a looper might be a partial solution but I still need to be able to use a single pedal in multiple different sounds and different knob settings.

I was thinking of maybe seeing if there was some kind of MIDI solution to this problem or maybe check out the Roland VB stuff. Or maybe try to find one of the Yamaha Sonicstomp or some other modeler pedal, but then I'm still pressing multiple pedals to get where I need to go. That's going to be hard if I need to change sounds mid-song....

I also thought it might be doable to just buy a bunch of BOSS BEQ-7's and do the looper thing with one on each loop combined with whatever effect I need on that loop, but that's gonna turn into a large and probably pretty heavy board...

As much as I hate the idea of a multi-effect pedal because of the quality of the effects, It's hard to beat that one pedal push solution to changing your sound to something completely different. Maybe I just need to go ahead and check out the GT-10B or one of the roland VB units....

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by driftingupward

I have come to somewhat the same conclusion on the POD front. I keep trying to get rid of my PODXTLive because it is so huge and I'm slowly getting separate pedals to do the jobs of the effects on it, but it is pretty hard to get by the use of pressing a single pedal to change to a different preset with different amp models and eq setups.

It seems like a looper might be a partial solution but I still need to be able to use a single pedal in multiple different sounds and different knob settings.

I was thinking of maybe seeing if there was some kind of MIDI solution to this problem or maybe check out the Roland VB stuff. Or maybe try to find one of the Yamaha Sonicstomp or some other modeler pedal, but then I'm still pressing multiple pedals to get where I need to go. That's going to be hard if I need to change sounds mid-song....

I also thought it might be doable to just buy a bunch of BOSS BEQ-7's and do the looper thing with one on each loop combined with whatever effect I need on that loop, but that's gonna turn into a large and probably pretty heavy board...

As much as I hate the idea of a multi-effect pedal because of the quality of the effects, It's hard to beat that one pedal push solution to changing your sound to something completely different. Maybe I just need to go ahead and check out the GT-10B or one of the roland VB units....

I don't really use the FX much in my old POD Pro, I more use it as a front-end, and a splitter. It also gets used as a distortion source ... one with many faces!

I have a Line 6 M13 that use for some FX, but I also have two Boss DD-20 Gigadelays, a Boss SE20 Space Echo, an Electro Harmonix Electric Mistress and a Poly Chorus (both are the old large sized stainless steel units), and a few wah pedals that I use as fixed band-pass filters that are put in parallel with a dry signal for creating really rude Geddy-esque tones. One or two DIY phase shifters as well. Most of my other FX are for dealing with overdrive/distortion, dynamics (compressors), and gain structure. Not to mention my EQs and filters.

But I do love that old rack mounted POD Pro .... ebay has them very regularly for around $150. I also have a modded "Floorboard" for changing the POD's presets as well as the wah and volume pedals. Great sound, gotta say.

[Flux Jetson]

Hey folks. I've come across some things that (to me) are kinda funny. All this time I've been preaching about the wonders of parallel processing. And yet, I find that I - of all people - have ignored using that idiom to get the most out of some of my own little processing toys!

The other night I got to thinking about the topology of my most highly-held parametric EQ .. my Rane PE17. It uses a parallel/series/parallel arrangement of it's five bandpass parametric EQs. Three are in parallel to the "clean" sound, and that group of three parallel bands are in series with two other parallel bands.

Here's two diagrams I did of the PE-17 ... I did the first one (the one on top) just now, then when I went to save it I realized I had already done one. They're both a bit different so you may get different things out of both.



Here's the older one I did a few months ago. It has the other two shelving filters included as well as the pre-EQ gain stage and the post-EQ gain stage.



So anyhow, I had been wanting a second parametric EQ to help to further me along with my goals for this "X-Rig project". There I'd be, lying in bed thinking of how to scare up more munay to finance another Rane - or all of these other ideas and thoughts would ricochet around in my skull as I attempted to address the need. I then began thinking of how to actually sortof ~construct~ a parametric EQ using synth modules. There are no actual parametric EQ synth modules out there (at least not the type I'm looking for) so it comes down to an issue of actually patching one up on your own using multiple modules.

Then suddenly, it hit me. While thinking of the modular synth gear I have on hand (especially the signal routing modules), while simultaneously thinking about the Rane's parallel/series/parallel topology .. I realized something very important. I could ~build~ a Rane! Well .... sorta. I became aware that I had never attempted to use the modular synth filters in the same layout as the basic Rane PEQ layout was. It totally made sense to try!

I realized that I had never really used my existing synth filters in a truly parallel fashion to try them out that way. I had only used them in full series, that is to say that I ran the entire bass signal totally through each filter without mixing any ~dry~ sound with the ~wet~ signal. King O'The Dumasses Here!

Me .... the loudmouthed Mr. Parallel Processing Guy ... had not thought about actually listening to my own advice and tried using my much heralded and touted almighty synth filters in a parallel arrangement! Holy Crap! Really!

Well, you probably have deduced where this is heading by now. I went ahead and used the Synthesizers.Com Q107 State Variable filter in my parallel processing setup. It worked GREAT!!!!!!!!!! I got a killa tone, loads of much needed low end, and a lot of midrange spike at the frequency band that I prefer. Adding "Q" (known as "resonance" on Planet Synthesizer) produced a sharper spike, as expected. Using the 4 channel distributor (aka "splitter") to send a certain amoubnt of signal to the filter, and using the 8 channel modular mixer to introduce the filtered sound and mix it with the clean sound acted as the "amount" knobs. So, just like a parametric EQ band, I had full control over frequency, "Q", and level - exactly like a fully parametric EQ band.

But there's so much more depth with this setup than a parametric EQ can offer. I have FOUR filter states from which to choose and mix together, all in one filter, along with the clean tone. In the Synthesizers.Com Q107 State Variable filter there are four separate modes, all of which are available at once:

- Low Pass Filter state - 2-pole/12db slope.
- High Pass Filter state - 2-pole/12db slope.
- Band Pass Filter state - 1-pole/6db slope.
- Band Reject Filter state (aka "notch filter") - 1-pole/6db slope.

Those four states are fully available all simultaneously and totally mixable as well. Unlike most of the "lowly" parametric EQs which only have bandpass mode ability.

To make things even MORE fun, I happen to have TWO of these Q107s, as well as a Q150 which is a strictly Low Pass filter, but has FOUR selectable slopes (1-pole/6db ... 2-pole/12db ... 3-pole/18db ... 4-pole/24db). It also has two parallel inputs that each have their own level controls.

All I did the other night was use just one Q107, in HIGH PASS mode, mixed with the clean/dry/unfiltered sound with a mix that suited me. I was totally amazed at the amount of processing power that setup provided. And, as you may be able to deduce, I have barely scratched the outer surface of the depth that these ideas possess. Here's a diagram of how it was patched up.



And here's a picture-gram of the patch (click on it to view it full-size)....



So, this worked out well. VERY well. So well that I now know I need to dig into this setup much further. I was able to tweak the settings until it produced a really powerful and muscular 70s rock bass sound. Getting a modern type bass sound was just as easy, all it required was a different filter state and a little bit different mix of clean/filtered.

For the 70's rock bass sound I exclusively used the neck pickup only. No tricky Pickup Switcher stuff going on, no wierd pickup mixes, just the neck pickup. Almost makes me want to abandon the X-Bass pickup tests. (yea, right .. as if!) Well, I did say "almost".

One other thing I discovered was something I already knew (so it was sortof a rediscovery). It deals with the bass cabs themselves and a new bass cab design that I'm working up. One that sounds the same to anyone that is listening, no matter where they are located. So the drummer will hear the same sound that the bass player hears, which is the same sound that the audience hears. More on that as it develops!

So there you have it ..... the course is set for my next round of experiments. Will this "fully custom fully modular parametric EQ" replace my sacred Rane? That is very doubtful. But it is nice to know that I can use such a powerful filter to it's fullest potential to assist this endless quest. I definitely see the Rane being used along with the modular filters though!

L8R SK8RS!

Unt now ve dahnce ...... shprockets ....

[Flux Jetson]

HECTIC PARAMETRIC:

I tried some more new arrangements. The one that really stunned me (due to it's utter simplicity) was going from a prototype comp that a boutique builder let me try, into the Rane PE-17 as the preamp, then directly into the Mackie power amp, powering just the 4x10 which I put on the floor (it's usually on top of the 2x10). Amazingly great rock bass tone.

On the Rane parametric EQ, I ran 80hz up about 8db, did a monster scoop around 400 to 500 hz with about a 1.5 octave bandwidth ("Q"), and then pumped up the 900hz area with about 20db of boost by using two of the series bandwidths, both of them tuned identically so that their settings ~stacked~ ("summed").

So ... 80hz +8db --- 450hz scooped 18db to 20db --- 900hz boosted 20db --- and used the low pass filter set at 3khz to rolloff all of the highs above 3k. Mondo rockin Geddy tone.

The beta-compressor helped a LOT. It provides tons of pick attack and created enough punch to bruise a kidney. I may endorse this person.

BUFFER HUFFIN:

Another thing some of you may like knowing ..... one test I did I used just a Boss tuner as an input buffer. I had the tuner bypassed, but Boss stuff still buffers the signal even though it's bypassed. So the bass pickups saw a 1-meg-ohm input impedance by simply using a bypassed tuner. Then I hit the parametric EQ, then out to power amp and 4x10 sealed cab. More great rock bass tone. It worked for modern all-bottom/all-top rock bass, as well as 70's rock bass which is the 80hz x 6db boost + 450hz hard-scoop + 800hz-to-900hz 20db boost + 3khz rolloff. Anyway, the bypassed Boss tuner makes a GREAT input buffer for those of us with passive basses!

It should be noted that many rack-type parametric eqs don't work well when plugged directly into their inputs when a passive bass is used. Most of them have very low input impedances (like around 20kohms or so) that really load down our passive pickups and make them sound very dull and muddy, like a bass amp with the treble turned all the way down and the tone control on the bass itself turned all the way down at the same time. Mudhole funk. And the pickups become lifeless and unresponsive. So you need something between the bass and the rack PEQ, such as the tuner I mentioned, or a good compressor. Just about ANY Boss stompbox will have the 1-meg-ohm input impedance even while bypassed. So you can pick up that $25 Boss distortion box on Ebay and use it as your input buffer, just leave it bypassed all the time and your passive bass won't care what else is plugged in the chain after that.

You could really freak some people out that way .... use some funky Boss guitar distortion box, something cheap and certain to sound like total ass if used "turned on" with your bass. But use it bypassed and you'll get this GREAT responsive very alive tone from your P/J/Jag/Everwhat passive bass. And when that bass player from the audience walks up to you after the gig and asks how you're getting such a clear tone and you point to some beat up Boss crap-box you bought on Ebay for $20 bucks shipped .. he'll scratch his head in total disbelief not knowing that all Boss stompboxes have a 1-meg-ohm input impedance when bypassed or engaged (same impedance high-dollar all tube bass heads have).

I'll accept "Thanks" in the form of donations in denominations of $100 .... haahaa!

Seriously though, Boss pedals make great input buffers for passive basses. They just have to be powered up with a battery or power supply but they do NOT have to be engaged, they can be bypassed for the buffer to work just great. I use a TU-2 tuner .. cuz .. well .. I need a tuner, so may as well have one that is paying it's wages whether I'm tuning up or just playing. So I tune with it, and then use it as an input buffer when it's bypassed.

There is your Bass-Jedi tip of the year!

May the Schwartz be with you.

Signed .. Yoga.

[Flux Jetson]

Hey there. Got some serious fun on it's way. I sold a few of my old motorcycle parts, so I've been able to order in some bits and pieces that will continue to add to this setup. Some of this stuff is really cool!

We're talking presets here folks!

There are kit bits and pcbs out there that permit a person to replace analog potentiometers with some little trinkets, and actually control those parts via MIDI signals. You may also store up to 128 (one hundred and twenty eight) separate settings. There are also teensy little pcbs that have microchips and relays on them that allow you to (true) bypass .. well .. anything! So where ever you might imagine placing either a standard pot or a standard analog toggle switch (up to 3 poles and two throws), you can replace them with little tiny circuit boards and control them via MIDI signal.

IMPLICATIONS - APPLICATIONS:

What this means is, for a person like myself, I can actually have midi controllable PRESETS in this routing and filtering system. And still have the audio path remain fully and totally ANALOG! Unlike using something like a POD or the like ... (where your audio signal is converted to binary ones and zeroes, processed all to hell by moving around ones and zeros, then re-converting that language back into an analog volts and amps audio signal) ... the signal remains fully analog.

Resist the Digi!

Y'see, "digital sound" requires that your analog audio signal (which is comprised of VOLTS - AMPS - at a given FREQUENCY), the analog volts and amps are sent through a thing called an AD/DA Converter. That stands for "Analog to Digital - Digital to Analog Converter". What it means is that your precious and most genuine analog audio signal is sent into a gizmo that converts it from analog to digital form, then once in that digital form it is sent into ~whatever~ to tweak it to your liking (y'know, run it through various FX, amp modelers, and so on). Then to put the signal into a form that is most used by the industry, it must be re-converted back to analog again. So your sound has gone through all of these converters, manipulators, and changers then handed back to you. The hope is that the tone is at least CLOSE to being as natural and genuine as it was before it went through all of that. The main issue about digital is that none of these digital devices produce any better tone than their AD/DA converters will produce.

So an amp modeler or digital FX unit sounds no better than the AD/DA that it uses within it. No matter how trick or innovative the actual modeling or manipulations are, in the end it won't sound any better than the AD/DA circuitry that the manufacturer elected to invest in. There are good AD/DA chips, and crappy AD/DA chips, and everything in between.

The AD/DA has been the death of many good and well thought out digital devices. The manufacturers of such things may decide to use cheaper/less expensive (read "crappy sounding") AD/DA circuits to keep overall prices down (or to increase overall profit margins) ... in doing so they end up killing something that may have otherwise been really nice sounding. Any time those bean counters in the accounting division get involved, quality usually takes a total nosedive. Capitalism is RULED by greed, greed is powered by ego, ego is driven by insecurity. The predatory profiteers exploit the insecure. "Buy this overly expensive giant flat screeen tv/SUV/cell-phone/shoes or you won't have better stuff than your neighbors do, and society demands that you show off your social status and prove to everyone how successful you are! BUY THIS STUFF DAMMIT OR YOU WILL LOOK LIKE A FAILURE!"

Ahem ... sorry ... rambling again ... apologies. So then ... a-n-y-h-o-w ......

These preset items do not convert the audio signal to binary (ones and zeros - aka "digital") in any way. All they do is provide digital control over the analog pots and switches. Think of it like having a robot flicking the switches and turning the knobs for you. And that robot has a memory so that when it is asked to repeat any certain settings of those knobs and switches, it can do so with exacting accuracy. The robot is the digital controller, but your signal has not been converted into anything at all. There's just a digitally controlled ~thing~ making the adjustments and settings for you.

So .... applying that idea to my parallel router, I can set up various pickup and signal routings through various parallel (and/or series) paths, save those setups, and recall them again at any time!

Is that cool or what?!?!??

With the bypass relays, I can even set up various routings .... run the bass through `this EQ~, then ~that overdrive~, then ~this other EQ~ (or whatever), and save those routings to memory slots (total of 128). I can also save the individual devices' actual settings to memory. So if I select (let's say) program #10, it will configure the system to route the bass signal into any given FX or processors, and change those processors' settings to whatever I set them at. Just like a fully digital device does.

The difference being:

I get to decide what devices are in the system, and what routings the signal pathway takes.

This is the epitomy of the Fully Modular System.

The hard part:

Yea, see now this is where this notion is lost on some folks. Individual in-out jacks and individual pots/knobs must be replaced or augmented with these little pcbs - and they have to be installed manually, most times that means soldering them into place. The actual routing pcbs may be placed inside of a box or enclosure that has standard jacks that permit you to simply plug in/out any device desired. No different than using a "true bypass looper box" that many pedalboard freaks are very familiar with. The only difference is that the bypass footswitches are replaced with relay bypass modules (each one is roughly no larger than a standard 9 volt battery).

So if you want MIDI control over several types of stompboxes and/or rack units you can simply construct a looper box with this type of digital control stuff and you're golden.

Setting up various FX and processors so their knobs have digital control ability is more difficult than the signal routing is. You must actually get inside the device and add one of "digital pots" or replace the standard pot with the digitally controlled ones. And there are problems and hassles that go along with that as well.

COST:

If you are willing to do the work, the ability is there! And it is a lot less expensive than you may think!

A digitally controlled bypass relay setup is about $13 (thirteen bucks) per switch. So think of it like a $13 bypass footswitch that is conrollable with MIDI!

The digitally controlled pots sell for roughly $6 (six dollars) each. Then there is a controller pcb that is needed as well to provide the 128 memory slots. About $30 (thirty) bucks, and each controller may control up to NINE separate pots or switches.

I've ordered in some of this stuff to try out and get my feet wet with it.

SYSTEM INTEGRATION; putting them midi-bass pedals to work! (whoda thunk that 60+ year old Hammond organ bass pedals would be so useful!)

The other implication is expansion of the functionality of my midi-bass pedals. Keep in mind that those are essentially just thirteen normally open (or normally closed, whichever way you want to set them up) momentary footswitches. They can be used in any of the same ways that ANY momentary switch could be used. So I could set this system up to use my bass pedals to select various routing presets by simply stepping on a bass pedal! So no added crap on the floor to control stuff with.

So I can't wait to get started with all of this. The bass pedals will now be fully integrated into this rig. They'll do much more than just play MIDI notes ... they'll control my modular synth, control the parallel processor, play MIDI notes, engage and bypass various FX and processors, as well as provide input impedance buffers to keep my bass's signal nice and clear.

(I forgot to mention I also bought some input buffers that solder directly to footswitches! So that's all a part of this new bunch of ~stuffs~ that are on their way to my eager hands!).

To Quote: - here's a quote from the manufacturer's website ....

Imagine ... you've got your rig dialed in ... DIALED! Hold down a button on the Master Controller and BOOM! Your analogue pedals, modular synths, rack gear, and amps simultaneously self-program and save on one of 128 setups.

Pot positions, switch settings, bypass status, tempo. All stored. All of your oscillating devices synchronized to the same clock, making a swirling syncopated symphony.

Design simple. Design sublime.

The future just showed up.

Frelling cool.

Digitally Controlled POT: - here it is, about the size of a standard 8-pin DIP IC ("chip") ... about 2/3rds the size of a U.S. dime. It's called the "Hi-V" pot, for "high voltage". It can handle up to 18volts through it's circuit. That's pretty high!


Four Pots Controller: - see the four little "Hi-V Pot pcbs" on this main pcb? This controller houses four of them and controls four of them as well. The entire main board with the four HiV pots installed is smaller than 2" x 2" total size!


Naked 4-pots controller: - you can see the pads (holes in the pcb) for the little "pot" pcbs on the board there .... the little pot-pcbs just solder right in ... OR .. 8-pin DIP sockets may be soldered in so the pots can be socketted into place without soldering.


4-Pots controller board with IC chips instead of the Hi-V pot-pcbs: - The Hi-V pot-pcbs are used for applications where the signal is rather hot and beefy (as high as 18volts and 5mA!!). But if your application has a lower power signal to be adjusted, a standard "digipot" on an IC chip may be used. Here's a 4-Pot board with four MCP4151 Digipots installed (the four 8-pin DIP IC chips) By the way .. "IC" simply means "integrated circuit", it does NOT mean that it is a "digital chip" and that it is the root of everything digitally evil. The most basic stompbox circuits use IC chips, some of the most beloved classic analogue stompboxes use loads of ICs. The adored and well known "Tube Screamer" uses an IC chip. "Integrated Circuit" just means that a larger circuit normally installed on a circuit board has been miniaturized and "integrated" into a small package called a chip. It is nothing to fear or dislike. A circuit board the size of a piece of notebook paper can be reduced into an 8-pin DIP IC. Thank the "transistorization age" of the 1950s and 1960s "space race" for that!



Digitally Controlled Bypass Relay - the size of a standard 9volt battery. Actually it can be logic controlled (digitally controlled) OR a momentary footswitch may be used as well. Any type of "logic" signal (as in on-off, to ground) can be used to trigger it. So a footswitch, or as simple as a SPST toggle switch - or organ bass pedal switches!. Think of it as a bypass footswitch on a pcb. The advantage being that it may be activated with other stuff (like a toggle switch or a MIDI signal) and also it is FAR FAR more reliable than a stomp switch. Companies like Boss have been using this system for 50+ years. Every Boss stompbox has this type of system in it (except they use a different means of actually switching the signal, but it is the same basic idea).


Bypass relay board with I/O jacks already preinstalled on it: - Same as the bypass relay pcb above but it has the 1/4 inch in-out jacks installed on it to simplify installation. Cooly, right?


(continued next post .... )

[Flux Jetson]

(continuing here ....)

THE PRESENT SETUP: - here's how it all looks currently. The computer monitor up on the same shelf as the modular synth is for musical processing (the DAW). The actual computer for that monitor is the rack mount one on the main level to the left of the keyboard controller. The computer monitor on the main level (next to the rack) is for stand alone programs, the editor for the POD Pro, "True RTA" real time analyzer and o-scope, "FILTER" by Antares (a killer 4-channel fully programmable state-variable filter VST), ass well as a few other stand-alone FX/VSTs and editors. The actual computer for that monitor is up on the same shelf as the modular synth, right next to the monitor for the other computer. I know, seems oddly backwards, but it is what it is. And then there's the M13 there on the main level, as well as a couple of Boss delays, and two Oberheim arpeggiators. The Novation Impulse 49 keyboard controller is beneathe the modular synth. On it's way is a Synthesizers.Com "Box11" frame that will house a custom designed interface and controller system of my own design. It's ordered and en route! It will have two dual-axis joysticks (en route) that will interface with the modular, as well as to the MIDI network. So they will just become part of the entire controller matrix along with the foot controller expression pedals, the organ bass pedals, and the Line 6 Floorboard.

Under the black towel on the far right of the picture is my beloved 1962 Hammond A102, and next to it is it's own 8U rack with custom attenuator and routers, it's Marshall tube amp, and the 1965 Leslie 251D that has been highly modified. It's all in a big "U" shape that allows me to easily reach everything, and still be able to easily move around while wearing my bass or my guitar. My back was right aganst my bass cabs when I snapped these pics.






Here's the FX stand. It's a stereo stand that was part of an classic Technics stereo system. It used to have a glass door on it. I've totally reenforced it, adding strengthening braces and such. All of my stompboxes and stuff that won't easily rack-up will go in this. It has it's own power system comprised of a 250 watt fan cooled computer power supply that I got online ($9 bucks, brand new). Some of the FX will actually mount to the inside walls via ScotchLok, it will also have dedicated I/O patching jacks. This thing will be the target of some of this MIDI controller stuff (bypass relays, buffers, and so on).



And of course here's the main rack with the parallel routing setup. I've removed the pickup switching system, as some new discoveries have eliminated the need for it (for now!). I've also added a State Variable filter between the Distributor module and the 8ch mixer module. I've learned how ot use the parallel router to properly integrate that filter into the system, it works REALLY well as a band-pass filter. A few previous posts have detailed that setup out.



And here's the foot controllers. The bass pedals are yet to be fully designed, since I discovered this MIDI/remote control stuff the development of these bass pedals abruptly stopped so I may figure out what to do with all of this stuff and integrate it all together.




The taped-off areas on the Line 6 Floorboard are regions where I may not put anything such as extra footswitches or status LEDs.


Here's the Line 6 Floorboard with the "no-use-zones" filled in. This foot controller is for the Line 6 POD Pro in my rack. With these new MIDI controlled boards I'm going to employ this part of the rig may become a pivotal peice of the entire system, along with the Hammond bass pedals.


Ok, so there it is ..... the next step of this whole experimental system all outlined for you.

Oh.. wait... right... you may be wiggling in your seat by now .. "where are you getting this stuff at dude?!?!? FESS ALREADY!" Shees .. sorry .. here ya go ....

http://www.pedalsync.com/

Now .. it's Sunday. I have the rest of the day for just me, my pencil, and a stack of paper to cozy up with. It's time to begin to refine my ideas and start designing. Well, that is after I post a thread here in Talk Bass in the FX Forum to introduce this wonderous stuff to those that have not seen it yet. The more advanced DIYers that have not been exposed to this stuff are gonna flip.

And also, of course, before I begin with pencil/paper ... it is time ... time zat ve dahnce .... shprockets ....

You are very welcome my friends and followers.

[driftingupward]

Wow, that is kind of what I was talking about as far as being able to control your pedals in a preset type of fashion. So in effect you're saying that with the right set-up almost any pedal can be programmable. Very Cool, man. I guess I better start learning electronics more so I can get into this someday.

One thought though-won't this nullify any kind of warranty and/or make it a little more expensive to repair if you get in too deep and want to change things back? I guess if it was a cheap Boss pedal it wouldn't matter too much but the more expensive pedals would.

I could also see somebody making a decent little bit of side money doing mods like this on pedals.

[Flux Jetson]

Well, warranty? Yea, sure, totally smoked. But some people don't worry about that too much, especially the DIY types (like me). I buy a lot of used gear anyhow. And if you're able to do these types of mods to your own gear repairs are nothing difficult either.

I mean you have a point, but to most of the DIY freaks that this type of stuff appeals to, warranty and repairs are sortof irrellevant. Most all analog gear doesn't cost ~too~ much these days, and the digital stuff can already do all of these tricks right out of the box.

I don't mind doing this type of stuff to my modular synth, even though it's not even a year old yet. I actually got into modular partially to be able to do tweaks like these.

[Flux Jetson]

At the urging of a person I've come to call ~friend~ I entered the X-Rig in the BestBassGear website's "Best Bass Amp Rig of the Week" contest, and won for this week!

I tried to be as brief as possible when describing this thing, but as you may imagine that was a difficult task (seeing as how I am so bloody wordy in the first place, and this rig has a lot to describe in the second place). There were mostly less-than-approving comments made, as I presumed would happen. A lot of stuff said like "it's too big!" .... "there's no way you can use that thing!" .... "you're overcompensating for something or you're on too much meth" ... and at least one "mine is better, I should have won!".

There were a few positive remarks as well. I really didn't want to enter it but I thought ~why not?~ and just sent it in. Most commenters simply do not get it. I think it's funny that some bass players complain about how "big" or involved it appears to be. If this were a synth rig for a keyboard player it would be considered modest. It's no more complex or time consuming to set up than a drumkit. So much whining about it's ~size~. It's lighter than an SVT rig, and less expensive as well. And fifty times more flexible too!

Oh well, it really doesn't surprise me. Few people are willing to take the time to custom design a system to work for them. It's so much easier to just throw money at a premade bass amp that everyone else has! I should know, I've done it enough times.

[JetBlackJazz]

Can you please be the patron saint of bass tone?

[Basshappi]

Flux, I have read everything you have posted and I am completely blown away by what you are doing!

I hope to someday have a chance to hear all of this in person.

Don't let any of the negativity of the naysayer get you down (it doesn't seem to be a problem) you just keep on a Space truckin' bassbrother!

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by JetBlackJazz

Can you please be the patron saint of bass tone?

Haahaa! Thank you. I've gained a lot of experience with this rig over the past month or so, I'm constantly amazed at the width of it's ability. The other night I had just seen a You Tube vid about the Lomenzo Hyperdrive from Ashdown. After listening to it a few times, I realized it's a simple band pass filter hitting a fuzz-type circuit. It also has some sort of blend or mixing ability.

Pfft ... too easily done!

I set up a Zakk Wylde Cry Baby wah on one parallel channel, with a Fuzz Face guitar fuzz pedal right after the ZW wah. It took me a few minutes (really, justa few minutes) to nearly exactly emulate the Lomenzo Hyperdrive sound with near perfection. I was able to easily set up the same sounds that he was getting with that thing on this rig. Due to the open archetecture of the system I am able to do so much with it!

Lately I've been working on simplifying the basic setup for rock bass sound. So I've been using one of the POD's amp models (oddly enough the POD has some monster bass amp types even though they may not be NAMED after bass amps). I use the POD then run the signal straight out to the Rane PE-17 parametric EQ to put the over-emphasized EQ curves that 70s rock bass relied on so much. Heavy cut around 500hz, and HEAVY boost around 1.2khz or so. Add some 80hz depending on how much low end your bass/cabs produce. Mega-Geddy/Squire. I can add salt/pepper/ketchup/mustard to the sound by employing any of the parallel routing channels. Distortion may be added in parallel, in series, here, there, anywhere. Since the system is completely wide open with patching jacks and insert points in many many locations nearly any type of tone is possible.

I do have a basic setup I call "plain vanilla":

** Compressor (Farndurk BGC)
** Overdrive (Farndurk BGX).
** "Preamp" (POD Pro using the Brit Blues amp model).
** EQ (Rane PE-17 in the POD's FX loop so that I can use headphones in the POD and have everything in the chain heard on the phones).
** Power amp.
** Cabs.

That setup gets me most of what I want most of the time. I run the two pickup outputs to channels 1 and 2 of the first mixer to get a really nice mix (plus footswitch ability to switch pickup mixes). Then out to the comp and od. I usually put a T-Rex Phaser between the comp and the od in case I feel like I want one. I got the T-Rex for $39 on one of those insane Musicians Friend Stupid Deal of the Day sales.

That's pretty much Setup Plain Vanilla. I can go a million places from there very easily.

The largest downside to a fully analog setup like this is the lack of preset programming. Guys like me that came up through the analog ranks in the 70s are used to writing notes and keeping notebooks. So for me keeping track of what works and what is good is easy. I'm used to that.

But for those that suffer from Twitter-itus and have a space in their brain no larger than 140 characters, they may find the idea of having to use a pencil or pen too much work. Yes, I'm being a sarcastic dick. But it just seems like Internetites are becoming more and more unwilling to do things like ... oh, I don't know .... WORK! Or THINK! If something isn't less than 140 characters or isn't in a video, they just can't be bothered.

Ok, sermon over.

OH WAIT! HEY!!! The "brown truck" just left my house ..... could it be? .......

YES!!!! The Epiphone Thunderbird IV we found when I was at the VA hospital in Tucson has arrived!!!!!

I'll be back in a bit to finish this entry. I gots to check me out this new bass!!!

[jweber76]

Subbed!!

[Basshappi]

Hey Flux, next time you're going to be down Tucson-way with some time to kill let me know!
Congrats on the new T-bird by the way.

You were mentioning the usefulness of digital/midi for switching/combining operations and I have been interested in that as well. But what I don't see much discussion of here on TB is the analog DIP switchers like the Carl Martin Octa-Switch.
http://www.carlmartin.com/product_controllers.htm

Probably not something that would have much relevance for your system but I am surprised not to see more of these types of units in use with the large pedalboard users here instead of the usual multi-loop/bypass boxes (of which I have several of too).

Cheers!
B