Guys with 6 or more pedals: (signal loss)

nboyer941 · #1 10-11-2010, 06:40 PM

I searched, but didn't find exactly what I was looking for.

I'm curious about you guys with lots of pedals that don't use a looper.

It seems like running through all those pedals would cause some serious signal loss.

Where do you draw the line? seems like more than 6 pedals in one line is a lot.

I'd love to hear people's takes on this.

McSpunckle · #2 10-11-2010, 06:56 PM

It depends on the pedals. If they're all true bypass, it's just like having a longer cable. A passive signal could lose some high end.

If the bypasses are buffered, there will be some tonal degradation in each pedal, and possibly some loss in overall volume. But the quality of the buffer does come into play here, to some extent.

I've had pedals that, on their own, destroy tone. I've had some that had good buffers. It just depends on the pedal.

Loopers are very helpful, though.

savinggrace · #3 10-11-2010, 06:56 PM

Depends on what pedals are buffered in the chain and how good the buffer is.

You can't just think- "oh 8 pedals and automatic signal loss".

Also you can run a buffer in front of the chain and you will most likely get back the signal that was lost (if you are hearing a loss).

metalinthenight · #4 10-11-2010, 07:00 PM

I notice some signal loss, but only when I bypass my board and go straight to the amp (only if there is a problem). There is a definite volume jump, but other than that I don't notice an incredible difference in my tone. I guess if I had a 9 ba-jillion dollar custom bass, I'd be more worried about tone loss than I am, but if that were the case, I'd probably be telling everyone that "tone is all in the fingers."

scotch · #5 10-11-2010, 07:27 PM

Im a big proponent of tb loopers, dedicated quality buffers and planned out pedalboards. That said, it need not be such a big deal for every player. I'm also a little ocd when it comes to tone. I regularly "re-calibrate" my ears and rig by doing shows plugged straight into the amp. If I notice my pedalboard is choking any volume or frequencies - I fix the problem pronto!

I have about 8 or 9 devices on my board. I use a Loopmater tb strip and a purpose-built dedicated buffer (with Burr-Brown op-amps). I definitely hear a difference when running through all of my effects without the loop strip & I'm really happy with how the first-in-chain buffer maintains my signal over long cable runs. It's extremely important to me, as a session player, to have a strong unadulterated basic tone. So, in order to allow me to have so many pedals on standby, I really need the sophisticated setup. (Yes, it's sort of funny that I need extra pedals to keep the signal pure!

) My tone is under the microscope in a recording studio and engineers expect a strong, clean signal! They know when something is dragging your tone down!

On the other hand, not everyone needs to keep their 'straight-through' signal pure. Sure, 6 to 8 tb or buffered pedals is likely going to attenuate some highs or change the "feel" of your amp/rig. But not everyone cares (and not everyone notices). Particularly live- where your high-end is likely rolled off in the house and it's too noisy to notice small tonal changes anyway.

Some players likely prefer having some of those highs rolled off by a long chain of pedals/cables. Those curly cables from the 70's really had an impact on guitarists tone & they often liked it!

Then, of course, if you are using an instrument with a good active circuit - it's probably a non-issue anyway!

Bottom line? If you are happy with your sound & the people you work with/play for are happy with your sound... then don't sweat it!

Kwesi · #6 10-11-2010, 07:45 PM

As others have said loopers are only necessary when you've got a pedal that has a sucky bypass or you want to turn off/on multiple pedals at once. All of my pedals are either true bypass or have a buffered bypass so running them all without a looper sounds just fine. It just more money that I don't have to spend on the looper itself and a bigger board to accomodate it. Luckily for me and others like me, it just so happens that there are an abundance of pedals with good enough bypasses that I don't have to invest in a looper.

bigchiefbc · #7 10-11-2010, 09:24 PM

I have 13 pedals on my board, 3 of which are in the loop of a Boss LS-2. I've done the plug straight into my amp vs my pedalboard test, and can't hear any freaking difference at all. So, take things with a grain of salt, and also understand that any difference between one or the other will be so minute as to only bother people who are REALLY picking nits. With the exception of a few pedals whose bypass is TRULY terrible. One of which is in the loop of my Boss LS-2 (a Digitech XP-100 Whammy btw). Also, the original EHX Bass Micro Synth (mine is now modded for true bypass) and the Dunlop 105Q bass wah I would also put in that truly terrible group.

Swimming Bird · #8 10-12-2010, 10:24 AM

For me it's dependent on the bass. I typically use a bass with an active preamp and I get negligible tone loss (I can't hear the difference, but it might be there). I occasionally use a passive bass and notice some minor feel change if I'm running a huge board (10+ pedals). Running my easy to carry/current rig (5-7 pedals) I notice no difference whatsoever.

doctorpunch · #9 10-12-2010, 04:13 PM

What's a looper?

**JoshB** · #10 10-12-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doctorpunch

What's a looper?

http://loop-master.com/

http://www.roadrageprogear.com/

RickenBoogie · #11 10-12-2010, 07:17 PM

I have 11 pedals in my chain, and my tone through the board is beefier and warmer, and overall better than straight into the amp. It's all about pedal choice, and using good patch cables.

avvie · #12 06-11-2011, 10:07 PM

Thread resurrection!

I had some tech difficulties last night: amp crackling up and dropping out during the gig. After much trial and error research today, I've found that my pedalboard is the culprit. It's introducing LOTS of noise, and I haven't traced where the signal loss is coming from. Up until this point, I thought it was either input jack or tube pre-amp trouble, but all sounds excellent when plugged direct. I had all the joints re-soldered two years ago.

I have eleven pedals all powered by the Boss tuner/power supply pedal, except for an EHX Q-Tron which has it's own supply. Would you guess that my noise/fails are due to the pedal load or is this most likely a patch cable issue?

scotch · #13 06-11-2011, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avvie

Thread resurrection!

I had some tech difficulties last night: amp crackling up and dropping out during the gig. After much trial and error research today, I've found that my pedalboard is the culprit. It's introducing LOTS of noise, and I haven't traced where the signal loss is coming from. Up until this point, I thought it was either input jack or tube pre-amp trouble, but all sounds excellent when plugged direct. I had all the joints re-soldered two years ago.

I have eleven pedals all powered by the Boss tuner/power supply pedal, except for an EHX Q-Tron which has it's own supply. Would you guess that my noise/fails are due to the pedal load or is this most likely a patch cable issue?

It's tough to diagnose over the internet- but I'd suspect that 11 pedals are drawing far more current than your BOSS Tuner can supply! Certainly double check your patch cables, but consider a better powering scheme as well.

RickenBoogie · #14 06-12-2011, 08:29 AM

Yup, look at the power supply first. Something like a VooDoo Labs PedalPower might cure the noise.

avvie · #15 06-12-2011, 09:41 AM

Today I'm gonna try splitting the chain in half with a OneSpot adaptor and see what happens. I might also just scale it down, though that might impact my Stage Awesomeness Factor by -3.

behndy · #16 06-12-2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scotch

My tone is under the microscope in a recording studio and engineers expect a strong, clean signal! They know when something is dragging your tone down!

On the other hand, not everyone needs to keep their 'straight-through' signal pure.

i think this is a really interesting viewpoint. i'm in a way different situation where i rarely record, and so far only stuff i've been a big part in the writing. i NEVER plug straight in to anything. i always use a preamp at the end of my chain and go to a power amp. so if there's some tone suck compared to not using the 10ish pedals on my board, it doesn't matter at all. because the preamp is eq'd to make my tone sound like what i want AFTER RUNNING THROUGH A BUNCH OF PEDALS.

so, maybe some tone suck there? but since the "pure clean" signal's never going to be used, it is totally immaterial.

Joe Louvar · #17 06-12-2011, 11:19 AM

The longer your cable runs is the more signal loss you will have and the more stomp boxes/effects you have in line the more signal loss you will have (and more noise too)... period.

scotch · #18 06-12-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by behndy

i think this is a really interesting viewpoint. i'm in a way different situation where i rarely record, and so far only stuff i've been a big part in the writing. i NEVER plug straight in to anything. i always use a preamp at the end of my chain and go to a power amp. so if there's some tone suck compared to not using the 10ish pedals on my board, it doesn't matter at all. because the preamp is eq'd to make my tone sound like what i want AFTER RUNNING THROUGH A BUNCH OF PEDALS.

so, maybe some tone suck there? but since the "pure clean" signal's never going to be used, it is totally immaterial.

Yeah, of course! It's all about what is acceptable to the 'beholder' (whoever that may be). It could be just you, your band, a recording or live engineer, producer, audience member, your dog, etc...

In the 70's (so I'm told, I was in diapers) those cool looking coliy-cables were all the rage. Many guitarists got used to the extra "tone sucking" capacitance & it became part of their sound & how they addressed their signal chain. Tone loss due to a convoluted or long signal chain isn't necessarily "bad", but it can be if the desired goal is a clean unadulterated tone.

**** full disclosure: I very, very rarely 'plug straight in'! I use pedals religiously, but at the same time need to make sure that my tone is up to certain industry standards in terms of noise, strength, integrity and tone. It's my job. ****

Kwesi · #19 06-12-2011, 11:34 AM

I've got 8 and I think that 7 either have true bypass or some sort of buffered bypass. I know that I can run everything but my Boss RC-20XL without any appreciable effect on my tone. With the RC-20XL in the signal chain, though, it does squash the tone a bit.

Rob22315 · #20 06-12-2011, 11:38 AM

Your noise could be due to a couple of things. THe first thing I would check is the pedals. If you are using less expensive pedals like behringer or boss, then it is likely one or more of those pedals is noisy. Connect each pedal separately to your amp to see which ones are noisy.

If it's not one or two of the pedals, then the power supply is the next place to look. Sometimes, pedals on a power daisy chain can create ground loops. I have a behringer delay (hisses big time) that just doesn't like being on a power daisy chain with anything else. I finally had to dedicate one of my t- Rex jr's ports to the delay to keep it from creating really weird noises. Try unplugging the power from one pedal at a time to see if that helps. You may have to swap cables around a bit to keep the signal getting through while doing this.

After that, go for a better power supply.

As far as signal loss goes, buffers are your friend. Cheap buffers can be had from general guitar gadgets if you are the diy sort.