Help with looper/blender/mixer thingy

[B3bopbass]

So I've searched, admittedly not EVERYTHING, and I haven't come across what I'm looking for. I'll try to be as clear as possible.

I'm looking for a one unit solution that incorporates the functions of:
1. looper
2. blender
3. mixer

Scenario goes like this:

I'd like to run 4 effects with the ability to engage them on/off independently. (looper)

I'd like EACH effect to have a blend of the dry signal added to the wet signal to varying degrees. (blender)

I'd like to be able to engage any of the effects in any combination, but it has to be the SUM of each blended loop, not a cascading of effects. So if I were to engage loop one and loop two at the same time, loop one's effected signal would not act as the "dry" signal to loop two. (mixer)

I realize there's nothing new under the sun, so if I'm simply overlooking a simple solution, please show the way. Thanks TB.

[Sir Edward V]

that is a pretty crazy scenario; I don't think I've seen it done

it is possible... if you are handy in this area you could make one... other than that you could probably commission someone like analogman or... I can't remember any others to do it for you...

I've started a topic similar to this, in that I ask about how to make an active mixer (I get my answer too) to blend my clean signal with an effect loop...

you could make 4 of those type of blenders, then have an overall mixer connecting them...

this is pretty crazy though, what pedals are you doing this with?

[James Hart]

Mine isn't nearly as involved, but I commissioned www.olcircuits.com to do mine. not sure they'd take on something THAT outrageous

John Wesley of Porcupine Tree was talking about a midi controlled looper that they have switched to in that band over at The Gear Page forum.... That might be the route to go

TaySte was the one that brought it to my attention, maybe he'll have more info... it was cool stuff!

[assboglin]

I think you're going to need some custom electronics for that.

But out of curiosity what four effects are you wishing to run?

[TaySte_2000]

Originally Posted by B3bopbass

So I've searched, admittedly not EVERYTHING, and I haven't come across what I'm looking for. I'll try to be as clear as possible.

I'm looking for a one unit solution that incorporates the functions of:
1. looper
2. blender
3. mixer

Scenario goes like this:

I'd like to run 4 effects with the ability to engage them on/off independently. (looper)

I'd like EACH effect to have a blend of the dry signal added to the wet signal to varying degrees. (blender)

I'd like to be able to engage any of the effects in any combination, but it has to be the SUM of each blended loop, not a cascading of effects. So if I were to engage loop one and loop two at the same time, loop one's effected signal would not act as the "dry" signal to loop two. (mixer)

I realize there's nothing new under the sun, so if I'm simply overlooking a simple solution, please show the way. Thanks TB.

Right firstly there is no easy way to do this no simple fix trust me I've looked and I had one of the first Barge Blenders on this board. Next I have enquired about exactly this only slightly more complex yes more complex there are 3 companies that will build it kinda and it is not cheap.

These company are Gigrig, Wobo and Psionic or something similar but none gave me full solutions I was happy with.

This is gonna be a long long post so be warned.

Originally Posted by TaySte_2000

I'm after a switcher similar to the Proglooper

4 loops maybe less with relays.

It needs to have 2 inputs that are A/B Switchable not programmable.

Then it needs to have ABY section on the output but this would need to be programmable with the loops mentioned before.

But 1 loop I'd need buffered for fuzz's unless you buffer all the loops and then buffer it afterwards again what ever you think is best as I'll be running wireless's in so all in all minimum of like 50ft of cable through out my rack and pedalboard etc and this could go up to 90ft.

Now the hard part I'd like the loops to be blendable with my clean signal but switchable and programmable so my synth sound might be loop 1 blended with clean run into loop 3 with 100% wet. I could at a minimum manage with 1 loop being switchable from blended and 100% wet

Also again another hard part as this is for a bi-amping rig I plan on running 1 amp clean and 1 amp effected the input needs to a common effects loop for the whole signal chain for say boost and tuner so I can mute, tune and boost both amps and then the signal would be split in 2 and one side would go straight to output A and the other would go round the other loops and then out of output B.

I need this as small as possible as I'm trying to keep it all on a pedaltrain jr, if it can be put in a proglooper case that would be perfect.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Wobo

Hello,

Thank you for your inquiry and interest in WOBO gear.

It is possible to make the unit with the desired features, but the electronics won't fit into the ProgLooper's enclosure. We can make it using our MFX systems' enclosures. Also I'm sorry, but due to the holidays, we cannot take the order before September 15th. Making of such complex unit will take up to 3 weeks.

There are two options:

1. Standard MFX controller + custom patch-bay.

Patch-bay with additional features:
* A/B input switching - return of the loop no.1 would be used as a second input - and additionally, on the remote controller, there would be additional footswitch for activating only this loop - it won't be deactivated by other presets nor BP (bypass) footswitch
* Parallel loop no.3. If the loop no.1 will be used for connecting 2nd guitar, then the parallel loop will be loop no.4
* two outputs to two different amps:
o amp1 - the signal only from loop no.2
o amp2 - the signal from all the loops
The price would be a price of the MFX set of the desired number of presets (there are three versions available - with 8, 10 or 12 presets) +$150
Standard MFX prices:
MFX Prog08 $449.99
MFX Prog10 $519.99
MFX Prog12 $589.99

2. We could put all of the electronics into the remote controller by reducing the number of loops - as a standard in MFX there are 8 loops and you would have 7 loops available in option 1 (8th loop would be used as the 2nd input)

It would be a controller from MFX Prog8 system (400 x 160 x 65 mm = 15.75" x 6.3" x 2.56") with the sockets:

* In A
* In B
* Send 1
* Return 1
* Send 2
* Return 2
* Send 3
* Return 3
* Out A
* Out B
* 9V DC
The unit will have the additional footswitch for choosing the 2nd input. The price would be $450.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Thank you,
Filip Wyrwa

WOBO Guitar Electronics S.C.
os. Mozarta 13/8
31-232 Krakow
POLAND

www.woboge.com
www.myspace.com/hipgnosispl

So you could go for something like the proglooper or the gigrig which would allow you to program what pedals in what loops would come on whether or not they can include the mixers needed to have these blend or if you would have to buy separate blend pedals for each effect you use or you place the entire prog or gigrig in a single blender but then you won't have varying levels of effects. I don't know if you could get the mixers they'd put in to be switchable with the programs.

I was told by Psionic that anything is possible but it will cost and he specialises in totally custom gear so he'd be the best bet as he doesn't have any preconceived ideas based one products hes already made and he can also make the loops buffered for pedals such as fuzz's so the blend and any active basses you use won't be effected it would also mean you could put effects in any order and not worry about those pedals effecting another.

Hope this helps I'm sure it doesn't but you in the NASA of effects pedals with your question

[B3bopbass]

Thanks for the info guys. I didn't think what I was trying to do was all that crazy.

The idea originally came about as I was thinking of using only two effects in this manner, namely an octave (down) divider and a fuzz/octave up effect. Of course there are pedals like the Octron or POG that do exactly this, but let's say I really liked instead the Ampeg Sub-Blaster for the lower octave, and maybe a Chicago Iron Octavia for the fuzz, and I wanted to mix the two sounds, not send either effect through the other, which of course would yield totally different results.

And then it just got me thinking, what other effects would benefit from this type of mixing versus piggy-backing. Four was just an arbitrary number; any more and I thought the overall effect would become out of control and muddy. In the end, I realize that what this thing could potentially sound like is: (enter number) of bass players each using a different effect, all in perfect synchronicity with each other.

But it looks like the cost of something this radically custom will exclude me from my experiment for the time being.

[Jazz Ad]

Maybe I don't understand you goal but this seems pretty simple to me.
You will need an ABCD-Y box with 4 individual stomp switches. Pretty easy to find, Loop-Master or other.
You will also need a decent mixer with 8 inputs and inserts on each track.

- Feed 4 inputs of the table with the 4 outputs of your ABCD box.
- Use the inserts to plug your effects on each track.
- Patch each of the 4 inputs into 4 others inputs.
That's it, you're done. For each of your effects you get a separate on/off footswitch (ABCD box), output volume (inputs with inserted pedals) and clean blend (patched inputs).
Since mixer inputs are buffered, you won't suffer leaking or feedback.
Or did I miss anything ?

I use the "several bassists using different effects" trick all the time with my Boss LS-2.

[B3bopbass]

Originally Posted by B3bopbass

I'm looking for a one unit solution that incorporates the functions of:
1. looper
2. blender
3. mixer

And if I understand the functions of the Boss LS-2 correctly, you can mix loops A and B, but you can't switch either on or off independently on the fly without having to bend down and select a different mode.

[Jazz Ad]

You can cycle through A, B and bypass or A+B and bypass with your foot but yeah you need to bend to go from one mode to another.
You project requires a lot of switching and buffering. A custom built unit will be insanely expensive.

[Sir Edward V]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Maybe I don't understand you goal but this seems pretty simple to me.

yeah, I don't really understand what you are saying (after a first read and I'm tired), but I agree that it shouldn't be that hard to make

I tried to imply that it wouldn't be that difficult to make in my earlier post, but that might not have shown through. I would definitely be able to come up with a design that works for probably less than $50 in parts... there is no reason something like this should cost more than $200 to buy from some company

[Jazz Ad]

Appart from using 12 buffers no, no reason at all...

[TaySte_2000]

You all appear to be forgetting that it needs to be programmable loops so that you can turn more than one loop on/off with a single stomp.

Also I presume that he would want various blend per loop and therefore per pedal so that will take 4 mixers and I would also presume that he would want to switch between blended and 100% wet and then possibly have programmed levels of blend

So for example

Presuming 4 Loops with 4 pedals
Loop1 - Octaver
Loop2 - Fuzz
Loop3 - Chorus
Loop4 - Filter

Switch 1 opens loop 1 with an octaver with no blend as the octaver will have a blend on the pedal it's self, also opens loop 2 which has a synth fuzz in it with a 75% blend to put a bit more bottom in the sound, also opens loop 4 with a filter in it set to about 90% blend as that just so happens to sound best.

Switch 2 opens loop 2 at a 50% blend to get a lightly fuzzed tone, also opens loop 2 with blend at 75% so that the sound isn't overly cheesy and chorused.

These are just examples maybe it's not this complex but thats close to what I was looking at.

If you can figure a cheap way to do this then I'm all ears, I just don't think it's possible.

[Jazz Ad]

The method I described gives individual clean blend on each loop.
Nowhere is it implied by the former poster that this monster must be programmable.
Now achieving this with a single unit is already complicated, doing so with programs stops making sense anymore.

At this point, a dedicated effect program such as Guitar Rig 2 will do a much better job, offering much more tweakability than any physical system with as many crazy programs and loops as you want.

[TaySte_2000]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Nowhere is it implied by the former poster that this monster must be programmable.

You are correct I misread, Barge Concepts will build on they recentl did a 2 loop on with 2 different blends for each loop so you could just buy 2 of those think that would be $400 though as I'm not sure they could make a 4 loop one but worth shooting them an email.

I still like my idea though with programability which there are a few units out there just with out the blend options.

[B3bopbass]

TaySte, your description of the programmable unit makes so much sense and ideally, that would be the type of thing I would ultimately go for. But I know that kind of unit would be way out of my budget, and I was trying to go for something simpler yet almost as effective. I've seen that custom Barge unit, and it comes close, just without the mixer part.

Again, this whole idea of mixing effects rather than cascading them came about when considering using an octaver and fuzz in conjunction, two effects which I thought would benefit from this type of mixing. Do you guys see other effects that would benefit also from mixing rather than cascading?

[Jazz Ad]

Most of the time I do it to mix very distorted or effected effects with quieter types.
Typically, a bass synth tone with something airy like a chorus.

[B3bopbass]

Originally Posted by Sir Edward V

yeah, I don't really understand what you are saying (after a first read and I'm tired), but I agree that it shouldn't be that hard to make

I tried to imply that it wouldn't be that difficult to make in my earlier post, but that might not have shown through. I would definitely be able to come up with a design that works for probably less than $50 in parts... there is no reason something like this should cost more than $200 to buy from some company

I've thought about it some more...and yeah! Right, it shouldn't be that hard to make. Isn't this essentially four loops in parallel, each loop with a blend knob and a volume knob? And if I had to settle for two or three loops, no big whoop. Someone should be able to make this for not too much pocket change, right?

[Sir Edward V]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

Appart from using 12 buffers no, no reason at all...

What do you need the buffers for?

Originally Posted by B3bopbass

I've thought about it some more...and yeah! Right, it shouldn't be that hard to make. Isn't this essentially four loops in parallel, each loop with a blend knob and a volume knob? And if I had to settle for two or three loops, no big whoop. Someone should be able to make this for not too much pocket change, right?

you just want one switch per effect as well right? just to bring each effect in and out?

I just made a unit similar to the barge to blend my clean signal with my effects chain. I have a volume knob for clean signal, volume knob for affected signal, and an overall output knob (that doesn't really work that well (the output knob only that is)). Then it also has a switch to turn off the affected signal and another to turn off the clean signal.

I'm thinking what you would to for yours is to make four of those (without the switch to turn off clean signal if you want) then mix them all together at the end. The input would branch off to each of the effect send jacks as well as the clean signal input on the mixers for each channel. The switches just bring the loop out of the signal and bring clean to normal volume.

I'm pretty sure it would work for what you want, and cost around $50 for the parts.

[Sir Edward V]

ooh and you would probably need a decent sized enclosure, I'm thinking EHX polyphase, metalmuff, micro qtron+ sized case. maybe it could fit in a LBM sized case MAYBE

[Jazz Ad]

You will never get proper blending of parallel signals without buffers.
Say you're trying to run a clean signal parallel with an effect, the output of your effect will feedback into the output through the clean line.
Signal can also feedback crossing some pedals the wrong way, from output to input. Fuzz and wah pedals usually have this kind of issue. Then there is impedance problems. You won't get proper feeding of 2 pedals with different impedances.
It's the buffers' job to avoid all these issues. Without them all you will have is a giant mess.
All decent units offering parallel signals like the Boss LS-2 or the Barge use buffers everywhere on the path.