Help with running M13 effects parallel using LS-2

[walknbluez]

I just got a Boss LS-2 pedal which I want to use with my M13 but have no clue how to set it up (i.e. how may cables and what goes where).

I was hoping the LS-2 pedal would help the distortion and overdrive effects on the M13 sound better by blending. I would also like to run some of the effects in parallel. I especially need this in one of our songs because on the recorded version there is a rhythm guitar playing along with the bass during a guitar solo. So I'm hoping I can come up with some sort of dual layer (as described to me by Cheapbasslovin' in another thread).

Currently I run the instrument cable from my bass into the M13 and then a cable out to my amp.

I really don't know where to start. I'm hoping someone who has an M13 and LS-2 setup can guide me. (hint hint to TaySte and Cheapbasslovin')

Thanks!

[VermonaLisa]

I think:

Bass -> LS-2 Input; LS-2 Send-A -> M13 Input; M13 Send -> LS-2 Return-A;
LS-2 Send-B -> M13 Return; M13 Output -> LS-2 Return-B; LS-2 Output -> Amp

[cheapbasslovin]

Originally Posted by VermonaLisa

I think:

Bass -> LS-2 Input; LS-2 Send-A -> M13 Input; M13 Send -> LS-2 Return-A;
LS-2 Send-B -> M13 Return; M13 Output -> LS-2 Return-B; LS-2 Output -> Amp

This is correct. If you only want to use it to blend clean and wet then set the effects loop on your M13 to be before all the effect or after all the effects. If you want to blend two effected loops (octave down in parallel with distortion, for instance) then set the effects loop somewhere in the middle and go to town. The only downside to this method is that you are going to get greedy and try to phrase loop your entire signal and it will only record one half of your parallel loops. Small price to pay when you didn't have those sounds in your arsenal to begin with.

Enjoy.

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by cheapbasslovin

This is correct. If you only want to use it to blend clean and wet then set the effects loop on your M13 to be before all the effect or after all the effects. If you want to blend two effected loops (octave down in parallel with distortion, for instance) then set the effects loop somewhere in the middle and go to town. The only downside to this method is that you are going to get greedy and try to phrase loop your entire signal and it will only record one half of your parallel loops. Small price to pay when you didn't have those sounds in your arsenal to begin with.

Enjoy.

You said "it will only record one half of your parallel loops".

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about recording, just using this live.

How do you "set the effects loop" to be before or after, or somewhere in the middle?

So far, what I'm understaning is this:

Plug the instrument cable of my bass into the LS-2 Input. Then plug an instrument cable into the LS-2 Send A port and plug that into the M13 Input. Then another cable into the M13 Send port and that cable into the Return A of the SL2. Then another cable from the LS-2 sent B port back into the M13 return port, then another cable from the M13 output intot he LS-2 Return B port, then finally another cable from the LS-2 output into the amp.

Is that setup somewhere in the middle? Also 6 cables?

[cheapbasslovin]

1. The M13 has a built in phrase looper. If you have it wired to run two parallel effects paths, the looper will only playback one of the parallel paths. When I said record, I meant the phrase looper's playback, not studio recording.

2. If you want to use the LS-2 to blend in clean signal ONLY, then you can run the cabling like this:

Bass > LS-2 in > LS-2 out > amp.
LS-2 A send > M13 in > M13 out > LS-2 A return.

Doing it this way only requires 4 cables, but is much less versatile than the 6 cable method. The effects loop doesn't do anything this way unless you add an additional pedal (and more cables).

3. The way you have written up the cabling is correct to create two parallel effect paths through the M13. By changing the location of the effects loop in the M13 you can change how many effects are in each loop. The effects loop location is edited in the scene parameters and is saved to the scene (the location of the EL will change from scene to scene). If you place the effects loop 'pre all' or 'post all' you will have a clean blend. If you select 1-2 then the first slot will be in Loop A of the LS-2 and the other three will be in Loop B. If you select 2-3 the 1st two effects will go to Loop A and the last two will go to Loop B. Select 3-4 the first three will be in Loop A. You get the idea.

There are parameters that you will need to experiment with that will make this a little different from what I am saying. One global parameter changes the effects order from 1-2-3-4 to 4-3-2-1, another moves the phrase looper from the front of the chain to the back. The global noise gate will only effect one of your parallel loops. All of these will alter your experience a little bit.

Hope I added clarity and not confusion.

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by cheapbasslovin

1. The M13 has a built in phrase looper. If you have it wired to run two parallel effects paths, the looper will only playback one of the parallel paths. When I said record, I meant the phrase looper's playback, not studio recording.

2. If you want to use the LS-2 to blend in clean signal ONLY, then you can run the cabling like this:

Bass > LS-2 in > LS-2 out > amp.
LS-2 A send > M13 in > M13 out > LS-2 A return.

Doing it this way only requires 4 cables, but is much less versatile than the 6 cable method. The effects loop doesn't do anything this way unless you add an additional pedal (and more cables).

3. The way you have written up the cabling is correct to create two parallel effect paths through the M13. By changing the location of the effects loop in the M13 you can change how many effects are in each loop. The effects loop location is edited in the scene parameters and is saved to the scene (the location of the EL will change from scene to scene). If you place the effects loop 'pre all' or 'post all' you will have a clean blend. If you select 1-2 then the first slot will be in Loop A of the LS-2 and the other three will be in Loop B. If you select 2-3 the 1st two effects will go to Loop A and the last two will go to Loop B. Select 3-4 the first three will be in Loop A. You get the idea.

There are parameters that you will need to experiment with that will make this a little different from what I am saying. One global parameter changes the effects order from 1-2-3-4 to 4-3-2-1, another moves the phrase looper from the front of the chain to the back. The global noise gate will only effect one of your parallel loops. All of these will alter your experience a little bit.

Hope I added clarity and not confusion.

Well honestly this is all a bit above my head. I don't even really know what a "loop" is. So conceptually I'm not even sure what all these in's and out's are doing. Is there a guide somewhere here on talkbass that would serve as a primer on this?

The comments in another thread that made me get this LS-2 pedal was Tayste_2000 saying "Then think of all the combinations of this especially with pitch shifters so

Fuzz - Filter
Pitch shift up 1 oct - Distortion

This would give you a keyboard synth bass sound that has a guitar playing along with it."

and you saying "A lot of people run Octave> Filter, and that sounds great, but my preference is to run my Octave in parallel with a HP or BP Filter which gives the bass a strong two layer, almost two instrument tone. I LOVE THIS TONE. I could never get it with a series signal path no matter how hard I tried. There are tons of options on how to use parallel paths, but I find I like it best to try to create a two instrument tone."

THIS sounds really good.

[cheapbasslovin]

Originally Posted by walknbluez

Well honestly this is all a bit above my head. I don't even really know what a "loop" is. So conceptually I'm not even sure what all these in's and out's are doing. Is there a guide somewhere here on talkbass that would serve as a primer on this?

The comments in another thread that made me get this LS-2 pedal was Tayste_2000 saying "Then think of all the combinations of this especially with pitch shifters so

Fuzz - Filter
Pitch shift up 1 oct - Distortion

This would give you a keyboard synth bass sound that has a guitar playing along with it."

and you saying "A lot of people run Octave> Filter, and that sounds great, but my preference is to run my Octave in parallel with a HP or BP Filter which gives the bass a strong two layer, almost two instrument tone. I LOVE THIS TONE. I could never get it with a series signal path no matter how hard I tried. There are tons of options on how to use parallel paths, but I find I like it best to try to create a two instrument tone."

THIS sounds really good.

One problem is that the term 'loop' applies to just about everything. Phrase Loop, true bypass loop, parallel loop, fx loop are all different things that use the same damn word.

FX loop on the M13 is a tap in the series signal path that lets you put an external effect in between the effects on the m13. If you were running the m13 with a simple Bass> M13 > amp setup you could throw your favorite fuzz between the octave and phaser using the M13 effects loop. A series signal is just a linear signal that cascades from one device to the next.

A parallel loop is when you tap the signal into two distinct and separate paths, effect them in different ways, then bring them back together. The FX loop on the M13 allows you to create two different distinct paths. I made up a gif to show what the thing is doing. The top of the image is the 4 cable method that will allow you to blend the dry bass with the M13. The bottom image shows what the signal path looks like with the 6 cable method.

If it is still confusing, another way to look at it would be to imagine the dashed red line and the solid blue line heading to their own amps. The LS-2 is taking the two signals that could go to individual amps and mixing them so it can be amplified by one amp.

The green lines represent the connections between the effects internal to the M13.

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by cheapbasslovin

One problem is that the term 'loop' applies to just about everything. Phrase Loop, true bypass loop, parallel loop, fx loop are all different things that use the same damn word.

FX loop on the M13 is a tap in the series signal path that lets you put an external effect in between the effects on the m13. If you were running the m13 with a simple Bass> M13 > amp setup you could throw your favorite fuzz between the octave and phaser using the M13 effects loop. A series signal is just a linear signal that cascades from one device to the next.

A parallel loop is when you tap the signal into two distinct and separate paths, effect them in different ways, then bring them back together. The FX loop on the M13 allows you to create two different distinct paths. I made up a gif to show what the thing is doing. The top of the image is the 4 cable method that will allow you to blend the dry bass with the M13. The bottom image shows what the signal path looks like with the 6 cable method.

If it is still confusing, another way to look at it would be to imagine the dashed red line and the solid blue line heading to their own amps. The LS-2 is taking the two signals that could go to individual amps and mixing them so it can be amplified by one amp.

The green lines represent the connections between the effects internal to the M13.

Thanks, it's been a few months and I was going to get some cables today to do this and I saw your gifs....didn't see them the first time.

What is the 6 cable method accomplishing that the 4 cable method isn't?

Any specific/size cables you recommend?

[cheapbasslovin]

6 cable method allows you to do both clean blending and parallel effects paths, while the 4 cable only allows for clean blending.

One example of a parallel effects path that I've used is to run the bass octave effect in one path (e.g. the red path on the gif) and a tron up on the other path (blue on the gif). This gives a completely different sound than running them in series. For clean blending, set the FXLoop scene parameter for 'pre all' or 'post all'. For parallel paths, set the FXLoop to one of the other positions. There are endless possibilities with this setup, my example is just one.

I'm not a big cable elitist. Use cables that pass the signal and don't attract a lot of noise. I use cheap shielded cable and I have no problems with my tone.

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by cheapbasslovin

6 cable method allows you to do both clean blending and parallel effects paths, while the 4 cable only allows for clean blending.

One example of a parallel effects path that I've used is to run the bass octave effect in one path (e.g. the red path on the gif) and a tron up on the other path (blue on the gif). This gives a completely different sound than running them in series. For clean blending, set the FXLoop scene parameter for 'pre all' or 'post all'. For parallel paths, set the FXLoop to one of the other positions. There are endless possibilities with this setup, my example is just one.

I'm not a big cable elitist. Use cables that pass the signal and don't attract a lot of noise. I use cheap shielded cable and I have no problems with my tone.

may as well go the six cable route. I should use a standard instrument cable I presume? with all those cables, what length do you find works best so that there is enough length but not a big jumble?

[cheapbasslovin]

Probably 18 or 24 inch cables to get them around the frame of the unit. There may even be one that needs to be a little longer. You'll need to experiment a little with where you want to put the LS-2 in relation to the M13. It is a little messy unless you drop it on a board and run stuff underneath. I got a little creative. Stacked my parallel looper (not a LS-2) on a riser and ran my cabling directly under it.

[walknbluez]

cheapbasslovin, a big thank you for all the help!