How can I improve my tone?

[Sneakypete]

I've recently gone down the path of separate pre and power amps - driving a Peavey CS800S with my Sansamp DI pedal. I have a 1x15 in one channel and a 2x10 in the other. The power and headroom I have now is great but I feel there is something lacking in tone. I find tone a very difficult thing to describe so would say that my sound is lacking in richness - almost as though it is too clean and and clinical. I've been looking at multi FX like the Digitech BP50 or the Line 6 bass pod wondering if the amp/cab modelling would help but these seem to have a lot of features I'd never use and by nature I like simple, single-use stuff rather than a multi-jack-of-all-trades approach. I don't want to spend more than about £200 so should I go for a multi fx if so any particular recommendations or should I save my pennies until I can afford a better pre-amp? I thought about the Sansamp RBI but is this markedly different from the pedal - it's really only the addition of the Mid knob isn't it? This is for standard cover band work. Thanks.

[bongomania]

I've never heard anyone describe the Sansamp sound as "clean and clinical" before.

I would not at all recommend a cheap multifx box for your situation, unless you just want one regardless. Typically I associate cheap multi's with muddiness and lack of energy and punch in the tone.

Have you tried just changing the EQ on the Sansamp? Maybe cut the lows a bit, boosting the mids and highs--this will give you more upper harmonic content, which is where most "tone" is found.

[Swift713]

I think that tone is not necessarily created by pedals etc but actually destroyed. What sort of bass are you playing? Do you like it's tone direct? What about your cabs? Many people would argue that mixing a 1x15 with a 2x10 is likely to mess with your tone in possibly adverse ways. You may be fighting the sound of your cabinets.
You should be able to get more richness from the Sansamp by turning down the bass, treble, and blend. You'll get a sound closer to your instrument. I personally like the sound of my instrument so my rig is designed not to mask that.
Most importantly, what sort of tone are you shooting for? Quite likely for covers the Sansamp VT would be a good bet.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Swift713

I think that tone is not necessarily created by pedals etc but actually destroyed. What sort of bass are you playing? Do you like it's tone direct? What about your cabs? Many people would argue that mixing a 1x15 with a 2x10 is likely to mess with your tone in possibly adverse ways. You may be fighting the sound of your cabinets.

i would happen to be one of those people who would argue against mixing cabs. however, i don't know if that's the problem here. it could be, though. it's possible the two different designs are phasing each other out and leaving you with less body in your tone. but i think there's something else going on here.

do both your cabs have tweeters? if so, turn the bottom one off. and maybe try adding a slight amount of distortion with the sansamp. not enough to be heard, but enough just to keep the sterility thing from happening.

[Sneakypete]

Thanks all. I use a passive Carvin Bolt 4. I was stopped in the street once and asked to do a consumer taste-test on some new beers (yes really!) all in little shot glasses. After 10 minutes I couldn't tell which was which and I think I'm in the same spot now with tones. I think I'll be cautious as I've always liked the sound of the bass and of the Sansamp and I've had the cabs (no tweeters) for years without problems. It may be just getting used to the extra power and doing a little tweaking here and there. I don't want to add something that will only confuse things and the minimalist approach appeals to me. I was hoping nobody would say " oh, you gotta get a *****". I think I'll try running one cab at a time first to see if there really is a phase difference. The trouble is that I can only really crank it up at band rehearsals but then I've got the four other noisy buggers to contend with! Thanks again.

[OilcanRacer]

put some labella flatwound strings on your bass. that will improve your tone a lot.

[COOL AND DEADLY]

Obviously, pedals, amp, settings, strings are all huge tone factors. But it starts with you and your fingers. I saw Brian Bromberg tell a story about hearing Jaco rehearsing in the next room. He could tell from the style and tone it was Jaco. He went in the room and was very surprised to see Jaco playing a fretted bass. He was certain before it was his fretless because he had nearly the exact same tone, so close Brian couldn't tell the difference. All I am saying is maybe try playing closer to the neck, or closer to the bridge. Try attacking the string with finger pads, or very tips. Or use a pick if you want that tone. Sometimes the answer doesn't come from buying new gear.

[JimmyM]

ultimately, c'n'd is right. i have a rule that i never blame the gear for a bad sound. if i have a bad sound, it's my fault, no matter what i use. you should be able to get a good sound out of any working rig.

but some gear just doesn't agree with people, so that's no excuse to not get what you want.

[Swift713]

What was your previous rig? What do you feel like you're missing?
My ear gets confused all the time when I switch up my gear. Expectation makes a huge difference, when I get used to a certain tone and then switch things up it sounds wrong until my ear adjusts.

[Sneakypete]

Previously I've used a Peavey Mk.VI with the cabs and sometimes used my backup Laney RB9 to drive the 2x10 and kept the 1x15 for the Peavey. I know what Swift means about confused ears - I get that too and my damned tinnitus doesn't help either! So far I've only used the new setup in one location (practice hall) - it's quite possible that a different place will give a whole different sound - I'll have to see. Thanks for your advice.

[warwick.hoy]

So you are using your Sansamp BDDI to drive a power amp? Bongo may be able to answer this a little better but I feel I should mention that you want the output impedance of the BDDI to match the input sensitivity of the poweramp. They will work if they don't match but it wouldn't be ideal.

Bongo outlined how to tell (which is often times difficult to decipher) the values of each, but I've since deleted the correspondence that detailed that information. Get with him on that, but I wonder if that is the source of you problem.

I used to run a Sansamp Programmable BDDI pushing an Ampeg SVP-1500 poweramp, and I didn't have enough clean headroom (had the levels dimed would get louder pushing the drive but distorted too much,...BDDI,...I know). I added a Yamaha PB-1 preamp and all of a sudden I was crazy loud but incredibly clean. I just don't think the BDDI has enough output to properly push most poweramps.

[colcifer]

Originally Posted by COOL AND DEADLY

Obviously, pedals, amp, settings, strings are all huge tone factors. But it starts with you and your fingers. I saw Brian Bromberg tell a story about hearing Jaco rehearsing in the next room. He could tell from the style and tone it was Jaco. He went in the room and was very surprised to see Jaco playing a fretted bass. He was certain before it was his fretless because he had nearly the exact same tone, so close Brian couldn't tell the difference. All I am saying is maybe try playing closer to the neck, or closer to the bridge. Try attacking the string with finger pads, or very tips. Or use a pick if you want that tone. Sometimes the answer doesn't come from buying new gear.

+1

Play electrically like you play acoustically; get your tone with your fingers and use your amp to let other people hear it as well. EQing is like mixing: you just want to make sure what you play gets heard.

[otis_thick]

IMHO I think "your" tone is like a custom suit taylored to fit.

You start with the bass itself. Do you like the tone? Whats missing. Maybe new pickups or a new bridge for more sustain.

Then there are the strings Round, Ground, Flat, steel, nickel, stiff or loose along with the guage...this lends toward your playing compfort as well as what parts of the bass's original tone that are empysized minus EQ

Amp\pre-amp-does it translate the tone of the bass with or without coloration the way YOU want? Is the output power enough

Speakers-do they have the range to transfer all of the above
the way YOU want?

For me, I use a Hifi rig that is full range and relatively flat in order to translate the tone of whaever bass I am using, I have 3 basses that each have fender shallow C style necks and badass II bridges. One is a J body with EMGs with bass\treble. One is light ash body with Bart MMc pickup and the third is a heavey flamed ash P body with EB MM pickup in neck and Duncan ceramic MM in bridge with Duncan 3 band MM pre-amp. Strings are same guage but nickle, steel. They feel the same playing but the tones are different. A clean and powerful power section allows each to come through the way I want.

Then your play style alone has a TUN to do with your tone!
You are off to a good start because NOW you know something is not right but what is it? The search is part of the game. Good luck

[Sneakypete]

Warwick.hoy - my Sansamp is just the small floor-pedal type not the BDDI - I don't know what signal it outputs as it's not in the booklet but the Peavey says it needs 1.4V which doesn't seem very high. The general response seems to point to strings, setup and style and I have a feeling this is right - I need more time to investigate. It's not that I have a bad sound (far from it) but I've only been able to crank it up in a band context a couple of times and at first the tone sounded a little sterile to me but I'm working on it. I've definitely decided against a multi FX - maybe one day when I'm not so strapped for cash I'll go for a nice preamp - the BBE BMax-T looks good. I appreciate the responses - bass players are a thoughtful and savvy bunch aren't they? Well, some of them!

[wetzelman1]

an aphex bass xciter is a good combatant for sterile tone.

[BluesMan845]

I use one of the sansamp PBDI units and love what it has done for my overall tone. I see you've decided against the pedal/modeling units, which is a very positive decision. I've been down that road and all they are is fun toys to mess with on your own. Live, they suck tone and definition right out of your sound.

Strings can play a huge roll in tone. I use DR strings now and find them to be very lively and responsive to my playing and they have a long life.

You should be able to get a fantastic sound out of a sansamp DI but tweaking it in a band situation is key. I can't tell you how many times I've come up with the "killer" sound in my practice time alone only to find it buried at a gig by the guitar player or the rooms acoustics.

[faceinbass]

Tone =

Fingers>Strings>Pickups&Bass>Wire>Pedal(s)>Amp>Spe aker(s).

You have to consider all of this. I would start with your fingers.

[BluesMan845]

Originally Posted by faceinbass

Tone =

Fingers>Strings>Pickups&Bass>Wire>Pedal(s)>Amp>Spe aker(s).

You have to consider all of this. I would start with your fingers.

faceinbass - I am just quoting your message as a starting point for my post... this is in no way a direct response to you

I here lots of players say this and I agree, but only to an extent. True, your tone does start at your fingers and I would say that many different tones can be produced from how you strike your strings, the angle at which you attack, the amount of callus build up on your finger tips, where in relation to the pickups you are playing your bass and many more variables that could probably differ from player to player.

I remember once my brother came to a gig I was playing, and he is also a bass player and a damn fine one. He saw my pedal board, which by no means in extravagant, and said something along these lines, "what is all that junk, all you need is your fingers!".

It's at this point of the argument that I disagree whole-heartedly. The most important part of your tone is going to start with your fingers. But after that, then what? You can only make a cheap bass, amp and cabinet sound so good with great fingers. If I want dirt in my tone, fingers can't give me dirt. Sure, someone might say I could attack my bass like an animal but it's not going to sound good - at least to me. Not to mention playing a gig like that could lead to physical problems with your wrists and fingers. A good pedal like a Sansamp or a good amp which can be driven into an overdriven state without getting harsh sounding is a key element in obtaining a certain type of tone.

So, good equipment is essential to reaching a point where you can be really happy with your tone. Properly setting up that equipment is just as important. Knowing how to eq your equipment and how these adjustments can interact with your finger/technique is critical. If you feel like your fighting your equipment for a tone and you know can get, then maybe it's just that you need to break things down and figure out where the problem lies.

Surely some may argue that ( insert famous bass player of your choice here ) could play any bass and sound like themselves because it's the way they play the instrument. I agree but that same player will sound MUCH BETTER playing through the equipment that contributs to their signature sound. A true musician uses their equipment as an extension of their fingers and learns how to make the equipment respond to their touch. It starts with the fingers, but that is by no means where it stops

Just one last thought that came to me from the OP's message about multi-effects or a POD. Generally, I've come to believe that you need analog equipment to get the stuff to respond to you in an intuitive way. All the digital stuff that has come out is all pretty cool but in the end I just don't see how it can respond the same way an analog equivalent will to your touch. I've used PODS and other all digital pedals and now that most of my setup is analog based I've noticed it's much easier to coax the sound out of my equipment.

[newbold]

If you're looking to IMPROVE your tone by getting new gear then I suggest you only get great gear and work with what you have. $500 can get you a lot but FWIW it can also hold you back depending on what you need. For instance: maybe your issue isn't with the preamp maybe it's your cabs.

Without knowing what kind of bass you're using (if that really matters), all I know is that you're running a Solid State Peavey Power Amp with a Sansamp DI and your tone isn't what you want.

If you need an answer from this thread, then here's one: Your rig probably sounds awesome.

Here's another one: Save your money until you can really upgrade. You'll be glad to have the money in case you NEED it.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i have a rule that i never blame the gear for a bad sound. if i have a bad sound, it's my fault, no matter what i use. you should be able to get a good sound out of any working rig.

but some gear just doesn't agree with people, so that's no excuse to not get what you want.

Yep. Any decent, working rig should yield "your tone" as you will tend to tweak any rig to sound like you. It may take more than you normally do, but you will get close.

I think finding your rig is a balance of budget, sound and size. The best sound that's the most affordable that fits in the vehicle - car, truck or band bus. I'm moving to a slightly smaller rig as my vehicle is smaller. I'll still get "my tone" it will just be slightly tweaked, a little tighter and punchier with 2 10's than it was with 2 12's. I'll still sound good, I'll still sound like me, I'll still get gigs.

Originally Posted by BluesMan845

Strings can play a huge roll in tone. I use DR strings now and find them to be very lively and responsive to my playing and they have a long life.

More and more I find this to be true.