The iOS Bass Players Thread Part III (Jamup XT, Audiobus, Multitrack DAW and MORE!!)

[PrietoBass]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

...this would ensure that mains are properly aligned, and that the system produces cohesive, intelligible sound that pleases the listener regardless of the source.

Really? I never knew such place existed. Most every place I've been they just blast my ears and it's either take that or take the highway. I took the highway. My position on excessive sound levels, and muddied up to top it all off is well documented on TB.

I was (still am) holding my breath that the policy of low stage noise that led Adam to adopt iOS technology was the beginning of something good for folks like me.

Sorry guys, don't mean to hijack/derail the thread. This here just hits a nerve, that's all.

I tried to convince some of the good folks at my old church that there is something called "training". It's possible to learn!!! I failed.

[Rip Topaz]

I feel ya, man. Loud stages just take the fun out of playing. When I have to go home with a headache or ringing ears because of an overzealous amatuer, it's time to bail.

The worst are the ones that throw the attitude that they know what they're doing, seconds before blowing our ears with screaming feedback.

Ah, playing with volunteers.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

On a more serious note, this stuff burns me up.

Any permanent installation company worthy of the name, wouldn't have the sub on an aux send in the first place. They would drive the sub and the mains off a DBX Driverack, use computer alignment equipment to set everything up, then lock it up and throw away the key. This would ensure that the sub and the mains are properly aligned, and that the system produces cohesive, intelligible sound that pleases the listener regardless of the source. It would also prevent tampering.

If you use high-quality separates, a custom-aligned system will outperform any plug-and-play powered speaker system, regardless of brand. But that's not what they've got at adambomb's church, and dozens like it that I've visited in recent years.

Instead, they've got the mains-to-sub balance right out in the open. It's just another Aux send knob, in the same row as the ones that control the monitor feeds. Is there any wonder that the knobs get accidentally twisted once in a while?

Not only that, but the mains-to-sub balance, which should be a global value, is now available to be individually set on a per-channel basis. It's as if the sub level was a kind of auxilliary tone control, to be left at the whim of the sound operator.

This suggests to me that the sound system was assembled out of a catalog, by a clever amateur who doesn't have industry experience. Or worse, that it was put together by an incompetent contractor, passing themselves off as a professional.

Either way, what kind of nutbar would set that up in an all-volunteer environment, where you pretty much know that 90% of the sound crew not only won't have the knowledge to use the setup properly, but also won't even realize that the sub feeds are a dangerous area, to be avoided?

Unfortunately I've never had the pleasure of playing at a place with the subs and mains split by a dbx driverack or any such device. It's alway been a sub aux channel....if that. It is as you say every channel has a sub aux. you nailed it. It was put in by "a professional" co. and an expensive one at that right along with all the expensive equipment...I will say that when they left. Any they had it dialed in, it sounded extraordinarily amazing.... But that was over 5 years ago. And that's plenty if time to get things fouled up by the "volunteer" we have and his volunteer "crew" I have made a few suggestions like this instrument is usually sitting in this particular area of the frequency spectrum (Whatever instrument)....and they look at me like I have lobsters crawling out of my ears or a dog tilting it head when it hears something odd. I just try to talk to them like .... "Hey, I was googling sound reinforcement and how to mix a live band kind of stuff, you know and I was wondering if this is what you do and what do you think of how they were doing it" so as not to hurt them while telling them how someone that actually knows what there talking about does it. But a lot of times my comment just seems to bounce right off their face and hit the floor and they leave it sitting right their on the carpet. So, I have stopped doing that
I hope after my tweaks to the board goes unnoticed and it sounds better....hey the mix couldn't be worse...with what I did. It can only get better.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by adambomb

Unfortunately I've never had the pleasure of playing at a place with the subs and mains split by a dbx driverack or any such device. It's alway been a sub aux channel....

...they had it dialed in, it sounded extraordinarily amazing.... But that was over 5 years ago. And that's plenty if time to get things fouled up...

Sorry for all this O/T content, but that's a real shame. Maybe modern DSP isn't as widely used as I imagine, but these things have been around since the late 90's, so it's not exactly bleeding edge.

EDIT: been doing a bit of reading, and it seems that quite a few contractors have beIn borrowing from the touring audio market, and doing this kind of stuff in permanent installations. it's apparently done in combination with DSP in a lot of cases.

But it still strikes me as an extraordinarily bad idea in any venue where you don't have professionals behind the board. It's entirely too demanding on the amount of operator training required...

There's a reason why sound companies have been squirrelling crossovers and other system components away from the client since long before we had digital processing, and it's not because they're trying to rip the customer off. To use a bad computer analogy, this is like putting the clock and fan speeds, cache sizes, etc, on a little control panel, mounted on the front of your computer. It's just inviting trouble...

[Rip Topaz]

This happened at my old church. We had a great Mackie digital board, Driverack, awesome setup. No IEMs at this one but still, a great setup.

The volunteers actually managed to get into the menus and change the presets that a few of us that knew the system set up. It was frustrating, and even more so when their constant knob twiddling ruined the monitor wedges.

To add insult to injury, when I recived a sizable settlement for my back injury a few years ago, I donated a large chunk to the church, asking them to spend it on the much needed PA equipment and the electronic drum kit that was falling apart. Instead, the pastor took his family on vacation a few weeks after my check was deposited, and no new equipment was purchased for the worship team.

I found a new church shortly after.

(This isn't off-topic. This club is for iOS bass players. As long as you're using iOS based bass stuff, you're pretty much ok to discuss anything, as long as questions get answered when they arise.)

[Duke21]

Originally Posted by Rip Topaz

This happened at my old church. We had a great Mackie digital board, Driverack, awesome setup. No IEMs at this one but still, a great setup.

The volunteers actually managed to get into the menus and change the presets that a few of us that knew the system set up. It was frustrating, and even more so when their constant knob twiddling ruined the monitor wedges.

To add insult to injury, when I recived a sizable settlement for my back injury a few years ago, I donated a large chunk to the church, asking them to spend it on the much needed PA equipment and the electronic drum kit that was falling apart. Instead, the pastor took his family on vacation a few weeks after my check was deposited, and no new equipment was purchased for the worship team.

I found a new church shortly after.

(This isn't off-topic. This club is for iOS bass players. As long as you're using iOS based bass stuff, you're pretty much ok to discuss anything, as long as questions get answered when they arise.)

I do not play in a church, and gospel is very rare in Norway. But this PA topic is very legit in this thread as we iOS players are depended on PA/ IEM more then others. So just keep on this discussion.

[Rip Topaz]

Heads up!!

Loop Twister is FREE in the App Store. It's a loop based (duh) rhythm and music making synth. Very cool from first glance, very complex.

No Audiobus support (yet, it's coming in the next update!!), but it does support Audiocopy/paste so even now loops can be exported into Loopy like we used to do with DM1.

Enjoy.

[Duke21]

Thanks Rip, I'll download right now!

[Rip Topaz]

Absolutely. Follow @iosmusicianblog & @idesignsound on twitter. That's where I keep getting these tips.

[Duke21]

Also Hardwire HT-6 FastTune is free, support for 30pin!

[Rip Topaz]

Thanks. Downloading.

[Rip Topaz]

Loop Twister is pretty cool, though I'm not at all into the techno/dance thing. Still, some of it may creep into a clip later today. Lol.

Lots of loops and real-time effecting of them. Cool stuff like band pass filters that are applied by pushing a button, releasing the button turns the effect off.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by Duke21

Also Hardwire HT-6 FastTune is free, support for 30pin!

If you downloaded this already.....how's it working for you?
Two reviews said the it didn't work well for their bass.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by Duke21

I do not play in a church, and gospel is very rare in Norway. But this PA topic is very legit in this thread as we iOS players are depended on PA/ IEM more then others. So just keep on this discussion.

I do play in a church but what we play...I definitely wouldn't call it "gospel music" to me that's a whole genre in itself from the 60s and 70s.... The topic may be the same but the music is not. We rock!

The topic I started....sorry but I get miffed. They act like they know what they are doing and if they did just a little bit of research....especially now days, if you google the subject they could double their knowledge on the subject in about an hour....sorry that was mean of me to say. I hope they know more than what I give them credit, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

I think the subject itself is very prudent since it has been a hinderance for me to use my presets I want to use. I wanted to use the red the other night and when I did it got lost in the mix (in my ears) immediately. The red usually shines so I knew something wasn't right. so I know it was getting lost in the house cause it always sounds better in my monitor mix. Using the avioms, I control the levels of every channel not the tone of every channel so also the mid bass and bass of the other instruments had been boosted as well. I didn't touch the tone of the other channels on the board I was just around it long enough to see the ridiculous use of the sub aux on the instruments that should be on zero through the subs (and the vocals too aaaaghghghhh) so I quickly made that change and got out of there. We'll see how it goes and I may have to do some strategic knob turning of my own after the next "service". I'm sure whatever I do will be unnoticed by the sound guys they are very set it at sound check once and then sit back and barely touch it after that.

But that's a totally different thing about them that infuriates me and I don't want to get started...

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by Rip Topaz

To add insult to injury, when I recived a sizable settlement for my back injury a few years ago, I donated a large chunk to the church, asking them to spend it on the much needed PA equipment and the electronic drum kit that was falling apart. Instead, the pastor took his family on vacation a few weeks after my check was deposited, and no new equipment was purchased for the worship team.

I found a new church shortly after.

Dude I hate to hear that.....that was just wrong.
I can only hope that the church "board members" took the money to pay off a few outstanding bills that were coming down on them, and they didnt know that it should have been designated to the music budget. I really hope the pastor didn't use that money on himself personally. If that's the case then you should have found another church for sure.
I hope you found that "new" church a place that you can really plug yourself into and make a difference like I know you were wanting to do.

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by adambomb

If you downloaded this already.....how's it working for you?
Two reviews said the it didn't work well for their bass.

I haven't used it yet. I'll report back later.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by adambomb

...I wanted to use the red the other night and when I did it got lost in the mix (in my ears) immediately. The red usually shines so I knew something wasn't right...

Nothing to do with your PA system woes, but for several years, an SWR Studio 220 was my primary head.

I always had a love/hate relationship with it, because of the Fender tone stack. Even with the enhance circuit off, those heads had a pretty hefty mid-scoop.

You might find some interesting new sounds if you push the mids on the model in Jamup.

[adambomb]

I have used a studio 220 head it was nice but it was paired with a triad cab and I found it difficult to dial in there were times I loved it but then there were times I was ready to pull my hair out.

When I first started to use the red I didn't change the tone stack at all I loved the way it sounded right when select the amp it has a default tone setting. I would change the gain to around 8 and the aural enhancer to max. Then later I did add more mid to my preset. But then I would use it now and it got lost in the mix

[Rip Topaz]

I've gotten away from cranking the Aural on the Redhead. At first it was cool, but in a band mix the bass tends to get lost if its too high. I keep it at around 11:00 or lower, just enough to add a little bit of what it does.

Now lately I've been going crazy over compression. Tomorrow I have a jam where I'll be playing with a loud drummer and a guitarist with a half stack, so I'll be bringing my amp along. I'll still be using Jamup through my amp (probably turn off the amp models and just use it for effects, or use the Blueline like I usually do).

I use a Behringer BDI21 as a DI (until I can afford a better one, planning on the Radial ProAV-something). The XLR will go to the PA and just give me a little dispersion in the room, and most of my oomph will come from my amp.

Still, I can't wait to crank up and see how these compressors sound at high volume with a loud rock band.

[Duke21]

Originally Posted by adambomb

I have used a studio 220 head it was nice but it was paired with a triad cab and I found it difficult to dial in there were times I loved it but then there were times I was ready to pull my hair out.

When I first started to use the red I didn't change the tone stack at all I loved the way it sounded right when select the amp it has a default tone setting. I would change the gain to around 8 and the aural enhancer to max. Then later I did add more mid to my preset. But then I would use it now and it got lost in the mix

Adam, you like the Redhead with the aural enhancer on max, that is the problem. I use the aural on about 11, well seem like me and Rip have quite much in common regarding mids.
What would we do without Steve and his tech notes?
BGM should hire you Steve for an additional tech column.