iOS, iPhone, iPad and music 101

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by Duke21

I see that the stealth is handling both A/D and D/A, but I see no info on the sound resolution, so 16/24 bit and 44.1/48/96khz etc.
The apogee jam is 24/48.

There's a specs tab on the website. The Stealth plug is 16bit only, at 44.1 or 48KHz.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by TXLawDawg

Rip, I think I have an idea but, would you mind telling exactly what your chain is for output? If I understand, you're going out of the headphone jack for the device, presumably with a cable that has a 1/4" jack (or adapter on the end) to a direct box, to the board? Just that simple?

I've dabbled with this type of stuff previously with a Windows laptop using the AmpegSVX software. When I tried, I was still using a stage rig so that I could hear, but I'm interested in going amp-less with an idevice - just want to make sure I understand what you fellas are using to output the sound for those that are running this as more than a practice tool.

Edit: With that in mind, what are some of you using for an IEM setup? I would assume that something like a Rolls PM50 (55) would allow you to go amp-less, use IEM's and still hear the rest of the band. What are y'all using?

Rip is using the iRig. It's a simple passive analog splitter cable, that gets mono audio into, AND stereo headphone audio out of, the iPhone, iPod, or iPad via the mic input and earpiece connections on the headset jack.

You can use any headphone that you would normally use with a portable device for monitoring, including a set of fancy custom-molded IEM's if you got 'em. With an adapter cable, you can also run your audio out to a stage amp, same as you were doing with your Windows laptop. To my ear, the headphone amps in Apple products are at least as good as the ones in most wireless IEM packs...

This is pretty much like using the onboard soundcard connectors on a PC, except that it's all done via a single 1/8" jack. This is possible because all newer IOS devices use a proprietary 4-conductor "TRRS" connector, that adds an extra contact to the familiar 3-conductor 1/8" TRS jack.

The pluses for the iRig are that it's inexpensive (often discounted below $40), and pretty rugged.

Originally, there were three downsides to this approach, one of which was rectified in later Apple firmware:

1. Because the intended use was for a headset mic, Apple programmed a high-pass filter into the input side of the headset jack. Prior to IOS 6, it couldn't be bypassed. Since it cuts off the low end pretty sharply starting at 250Hz, there used to be a very audible loss of low end, especially for down-tuned or extended-range basses.

2. As you would expect, the A/D converter and surrounding circuitry on the mic input of a cel 'phone/audio player aren't exactly stellar. This may be one of the reasons that people report slightly better audio quality from the iPad over the iPhone. It's definitely a major contributor to the positive reviews for digital interfaces like the Apogee Jam, with its 24-bit A/D converter and improved analog hardware.

3. The input and output audio pass extremely close to each other through the tiny 1/8" headset connector, which is extremely close to a lot of digital circuitry. There's also a pretty significant level difference between the incoming bass signal and the amplified headphone output. This results in increased noise and crosstalk, and if you're using a high-gain amp/effects patch, there's potential for painful feedback as well.

For the longest time, the iRig was the only game in town, which is probably part of the reason for the lingering prejudice against IOS as a serious operating system for making music.

It may be a bit crude compared to digital I/O across the 30-pin or Lightning connector, but it still works pretty well if you take care with balancing levels. Once again, things have gotten better since IOS 6, which also introduced the ability for app developers to control the gain on the mic input.

As you can hear from Rip's Soundcloud contributions, what you actually do with the iRig, matters far more than the technical limitations of the device.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by adambomb

thats the only major complaint that i have about ios devices the only way to connect is through the 30 pin or now the lightning port .... or .... the stupid headphone jack. how about just making the headphone jack a headphone jack. and not implement a mic jack into it.

or how about this... i know that for marketing purposes they want to continue to say, " the new iPad is now .002 millimeters slimmer than the previous iPad." You know what ..... no one cares about how slim it is... to me slimmer means easier to break.

Originally Posted by Rip Topaz

Apple just needs to pick a connector and stick with it!!

...I realize that the size is a factor but the 30-pin was just fine. I mean, how thin do we really need our devices? I have an iPhone 4S, and when I got it I thought that was thin.

With the 30-pin, it wasn't perfect but at least it left room for other manufacturers to develop compatible connectors. The 30-pin to USB cable should've been where it stopped for connections. The only reason for the lightening connector is that Apple wanted to keep making their devices thinner.

Oh, puhlease. :0

Go read up on the current wars in the 'phone and tablet marketing spaces. We need to recognize that at the moment, we are pretty much an insignificant pimple on the backside of the market for these devices. Million$ (billion$?) are at stake over this nonsense. The consumer has spoken, and Slim is In...

Besides, we're talking one connector change in 5 years. Do you know how many variants there are on the USB mini and micro connectors? Visit a cel 'phone store some time!

Besides, the Lightning connector is more convenient, and significantly more robust. My 3GS started having connection problems with my car stereo after about 2 months. Blowing/brushing out the 30-pin connector didn't fix it. Everything miraculously healed when I got my iPhone 5 and a Lightning adapter.

Frankly, I'm still pretty much in awe of what I'm able to do with my iPhone 5 and iPad 2. Lets show a little gratitude for what Apple and other smartphone pioneers have accomplished...

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Rip is using the iRig. It's a simple passive analog splitter cable, that gets mono audio into, AND stereo headphone audio out of, the iPhone, iPod, or iPad via the mic input and earpiece connections on the headset jack.

You can use any headphone that you would normally use with a portable device for monitoring, including a set of fancy custom-molded IEM's if you got 'em. With an adapter cable, you can also run your audio out to a stage amp, same as you were doing with your Windows laptop. To my ear, the headphone amps in Apple products are at least as good as the ones in most wireless IEM packs...

This is pretty much like using the onboard soundcard connectors on a PC, except that it's all done via a single 1/8" jack. This is possible because all newer IOS devices use a proprietary 4-conductor "TRRS" connector, that adds an extra contact to the familiar 3-conductor 1/8" TRS jack.

The pluses for the iRig are that it's inexpensive (often discounted below $40), and pretty rugged.

Originally, there were three downsides to this approach, one of which was rectified in later Apple firmware:

1. Because the intended use was for a headset mic, Apple programmed a high-pass filter into the input side of the headset jack. Prior to IOS 6, it couldn't be bypassed. Since it cuts off the low end pretty sharply starting at 250Hz, there used to be a very audible loss of low end, especially for down-tuned or extended-range basses.

2. As you would expect, the A/D converter and surrounding circuitry on the mic input of a cel 'phone/audio player aren't exactly stellar. This may be one of the reasons that people report slightly better audio quality from the iPad over the iPhone. It's definitely a major contributor to the positive reviews for digital interfaces like the Apogee Jam, with its 24-bit A/D converter and improved analog hardware.

3. The input and output audio pass extremely close to each other through the tiny 1/8" headset connector, which is extremely close to a lot of digital circuitry. There's also a pretty significant level difference between the incoming bass signal and the amplified headphone output. This results in increased noise and crosstalk, and if you're using a high-gain amp/effects patch, there's potential for painful feedback as well.

For the longest time, the iRig was the only game in town, which is probably part of the reason for the lingering prejudice against IOS as a serious operating system for making music.

It may be a bit crude compared to digital I/O across the 30-pin or Lightning connector, but it still works pretty well if you take care with balancing levels. Once again, things have gotten better since IOS 6, which also introduced the ability for app developers to control the gain on the mic input.

As you can hear from Rip's Soundcloud contributions, what you actually do with the iRig, matters far more than the technical limitations of the device.

Well said. And I agree. The Irig has its limitations, but tweaking is the name of the game. I'm using a simple 1/8" Stereo Y cable coming out of the Irig. The irig end is 1/8" stereo, the other is dual RCA with a 1/4" adapter. When I'm going into a recorder, I use left and right. When going to a PA, I use the left only (mono). It works great, but I'm sure with the Jam the sound quality will be tons better.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Oh, puhlease. :0

Go read up on the current wars in the 'phone and tablet marketing spaces. We need to recognize that at the moment, we are pretty much an insignificant pimple on the backside of the market for these devices. Million$ (billion$?) are at stake over this nonsense. The consumer has spoken, and Slim is In...

Besides, we're talking one connector change in 5 years. Do you know how many variants there are on the USB mini and micro connectors? Visit a cel 'phone store some time!

Besides, the Lightning connector is more convenient, and significantly more robust. My 3GS started having connection problems with my car stereo after about 2 months. Blowing/brushing out the 30-pin connector didn't fix it. Everything miraculously healed when I got my iPhone 5 and a Lightning adapter.

Frankly, I'm still pretty much in awe of what I'm able to do with my iPhone 5 and iPad 2. Lets show a little gratitude for what Apple and other smartphone pioneers have accomplished...

Oh please yourself Steve.
I know slim is in and it's stupid...
They all want a slim iPhone or iPad and then go out and buy an 80dollar thick otter box to protect it from getting broken. Which makes it thicker than something if built sturdy and thick enough would t need a protective case.
And all the different connections point ( my point exactly) mark my words in a few years apple will again change that lightning port to something else and once again everyone's adapters and cables and other compliant devices will once again have to be bought one more time because they won't stick with something. The lightning port is more "robust" but so is a standard USB cable.
I know there are a lot of different USB types on many different types of cell phones but there is one type that is a standard size that has huge amounts of bandwidth just look at the other end of your 30 pin or lightning connector sync cable.....both the same USB connector.
I too love my devices and am in awe of what they can do but the changing of connection will only hurt them in the long run because of third party developers. That was my point not to put them down but I want to see it be the most it can be.

[adambomb]

Also you all talk like 16 bit 48 kHz is a bad thing when you all try to sound like the bass player on your favorite cd or mp3 which is the whole band on a cd (which sounds phenomenal) at 16bit 44.1 kHz or an mp3 at way worse than 16 bit 44. We are talking of one instrument at 16 bit 48 here not the whole band. One instrument track at 16/44 or 48 sounds fantastic. Stop with the snobbery.
Yes I agree that we should all strive to get a 96 kHz interface but in the band mix one track at 96 kHz.... (Kinda overkill) the difference will not ever be heard by the human ear in the mix

[Rip Topaz]

Wow I walk away for an hour or two and y'all start fighting!! Lol. I gotta stop sleeping!!

I agree with Adam. As much as we'd all like the highest possible specs on these devices, we should all remember that at some point the human ear just can't tell the difference anymore.
For me, 44.1 is good enough. Hell, my digital recorder records at the same rate, and I've never heard a complaint that it sounded bad.

The focus needs to be on the headphone jack. What I mean is that thanks to the Apogee and a few other interfaces, we've got a great input signal, now we need to focus on retaining that on the way back out of the device.

Snobbery can't exist here, since we're all in the same boat. We're all trying to get the best possible sound out of our rigs, so getting crazy with the details IS important, but lets also try to be realistic.

How good is good enough?

[AaronMB]

Ahem, gentlemen. Don't make me pull over! There's no need to clutter this thread, too, with all this: it really won't accomplish anything here and will only take away from an informative thread.

Let's get this thread back on track and jamming on a positive note.

[Rip Topaz]

Headed to the basement studio to start reorganizing after it became a dumping ground over the holidaze. Time to get everything wired up and ready to use.

Gonna play with all the new apps and see if I can get some sort of logic to it all for live use.

Today's amp: the GK in Jamup XT. I've ignored this one largely because it sounded pretty good without fiddling with it. Now that I've got my other amps sounding like me, it's time to get back to the GK.

Happy hunting, everyone!!

[kevinmoore73]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Originally, there were three downsides to this approach, one of which was rectified in later Apple firmware:

1. Because the intended use was for a headset mic, Apple programmed a high-pass filter into the input side of the headset jack. Prior to IOS 6, it couldn't be bypassed. Since it cuts off the low end pretty sharply starting at 250Hz, there used to be a very audible loss of low end, especially for down-tuned or extended-range basses.

This has not yet been fixed.

[kevinmoore73]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

Besides, we're talking one connector change in 5 years.

It was actually nine years.

[PDGood]

I get a giggle out of the pursuit of higher and higher resolution by some and then another group is out there buying LPs and actually prefer that sound with all the pops and noise. It's just a reminder that it's all subjective.

[AaronMB]

Originally Posted by Rip Topaz

Today's amp: the GK in Jamup XT. I've ignored this one largely because it sounded pretty good without fiddling with it. Now that I've got my other amps sounding like me, it's time to get back to the GK.

Happy hunting, everyone!!

Right!

I rather like the GK, so much so, I haven't given the others due diligence (just the BL, which will get more time, next). The GK is especially fun for me with the Sansamp before it for a touch of something special I've been missing.

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by PDGood

I get a giggle out of the pursuit of higher and higher resolution by some and then another group is out there buying LPs and actually prefer that sound with all the pops and noise. It's just a reminder that it's all subjective.

It's laughable, but also true.

I believe that we are definitely at a high enough quality sound, even with the Irig with the right setup, that we should be putting a LOT more focus on playing instead of worrying about the tech specs (unless you're a tech junkie, you guys can have at it!).

As long as nothing goes wrong or steps backwards with an update, I'm not gonna be complaining. I know that my limits right now are being caused my the cheap interface that I'm using.

Now don't get me wrong, I also won't be complaining about more gear options! That's just the nature of the game. We as humans always want more, faster, higher resolution, whatever.

It's time to see what we can create. We have the gear to do it.

[adambomb]

Originally Posted by AaronMB

Ahem, gentlemen. Don't make me pull over! There's no need to clutter this thread, too, with all this: it really won't accomplish anything here and will only take away from an informative thread.

Let's get this thread back on track and jamming on a positive note.

Dad!!!!!
He started it...
Jk I just wanted to clarify and it was my opinion. And everyone knows about opinions (they're like armpits. Everyone got one and they all stink)

[smeet]

I couldn't find the A/D or D/A resolution for the Alesis io dock. Anybody have a link to the specs?

[adambomb]

I love you Steve
Thanks for your input

[CrUiSeR]

cananyone confirm if audiobus works on a 3gs, the app descriptions says it can't, it also says that it can!?
also fwiw the peavey ampkit link is on sale at gc for 14.99

[Rip Topaz]

Originally Posted by CrUiSeR

cananyone confirm if audiobus works on a 3gs, the app descriptions says it can't, it also says that it can!?
also fwiw the peavey ampkit link is on sale at gc for 14.99

No. Audiobus will NOT work on a 3GS.

[Duke21]

I will like to say something about this matter. Steve R is out "tech guy" and I like it that he is "a bit picky" and and always push towards what is technically possible. We learn a lot from him.
Adam and Rip for me are the "field agents", as they use iOS from the most practical point of view and Adam use iOS a lot.
(By using iOS I refer to bass+interface+iDevice+bass sim. app.)

I think both Adam and Steve are right.
In my point of view it does matter if a device can do 16bit or 24bit. It also does matter if a device can do 44.1 or 48 or 192kHz.
Now, I do agree Adam that 16bit and 44.1kHz are good enough, and live in the mix nobody will notice the differences. But we also have to remember that these interfaces (Apogee Jam, GuitarJack2, iTrack etc. ) are going to be used for recordings where parameters can matter.

First of all, when we are going to invest money in a device it will be a bonus if the device have several options regarding higher quality sound. I mean, it is a least not a minus!

With Hi-Res music becoming more and more popular the demand for 24bit and 48kHz (or higher) is a good option to have.

Lets say you are going to collaborate with somebody, lets say play a bass track for somebody's new studio track. If he decide to record everything in 24/48 in order to sell his music as Hi-Res FLAC file, then it will be best if you can send him your bass track as a 24/48 WAV. Well, this is maybe a wild example... but.

If I talk about myself as an example:
I first bought the Apogee Jam. Why? It was among the cheapest 30pin interfaces out there. I liked the idea that the Apogee can do 16/44.1 and 24/44.1 or 24/48. 16/44.1 is the most common format which is good, but still I like that fact that the Apogee can do 24/48, just in case.

When I went for the iTrack it was even more important that the iTrakc support Hi-Res format because I use the iTrack as a headphone/ DAC as well. It will handle most rock music that comes in Hi-Res FLAC format. The iTrack can do 24/96.

Btw, when I use Jamup with MT-DAW, unless I do a play along (where the original file is in 16/44.1) I actually use to sett MT-DAW on 24/44.1 . I actually feel that the 24/44.1 tone seem to be a bit more open and "alive" then the 16/44.1
Maybe I do not hear it on the clip, but it feels like it while I play. It might be a placebo effect though.

Anyway, I feel that we shell not restrict our-self to only better tone from the app/sim side itself, we should be open to obtain better tone by any mean if it is a real possibility. Every step we do in order to make our tone better is a good thing (within the voice of reason!!)