Karma Police -- how to?

Swimming Bird · #1 10-13-2007, 04:58 PM

Hey all, I've started listening to OK Computer every day again, which always gets me trying new effect techniques. In any case I'm having the hardest time getting the outro on Karma Police (I did manage to get the intro though). In any case, I can't finagle my DD-6 enough to get that oscillating chord that detunes at the end. Any suggestions?

bongomania · #2 10-13-2007, 05:34 PM

Any chance you could post a link to the sound? Not having heard it yet, the phrase "oscillating chord that detunes at the end" makes me think of the MXR Blue Box and certain other octave-type devices that flutter, detune, and glitch when the input signal trails off.

Taylor Livingston · #3 10-13-2007, 09:30 PM

Bongo, have you really never heard Karma Police?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5LeLAELIxKY

The bass doesn't use any effects in this song, as far as I can tell. The sound at the end is probably a synth rather than a processed guitar, based on the way it shifts in pitch without slowing down, but it could be a little snippet of noise, through an oscillating delay, with a Whammy pedal shifting the pitch down.

Also, there's no bass or sound effect in the intro... are you sure the song you're thinking of is Karma Police?

Human Bass · #4 10-13-2007, 09:37 PM

I love the bass tone on this song. It has a massive low end that even cheap speakers can easily reproduce somehow. It really is some kind of miracle..

sonicvi · #5 10-13-2007, 09:40 PM

What you want is an analog delay.

bongomania · #6 10-13-2007, 10:44 PM

No no! Not analog, but low-resolution digital. I have achieved this sound using 12-bit delays, but the real crunchy stuff at the end sounds exactly like the 12-bit stuff run through a bit reducer in Ableton Live. (I've done exactly this many times.)

The harsh high-pitched cycling sound that runs through the last few bars is a short sampled loop, and at the end the repeat rate is slowed down gradually by hand. The loop sounds like it was probably originally a guitar through a distortion into a delay, which was then captured by a second low-resolution delay and set to loop indefinitely.

phsycobass · #7 10-13-2007, 10:59 PM

I think that sound was a delay but the detuning chord at the end is the tape slowing down. The egineer slowd the recording down at the end to get the effect of decreasing pitch...

Swimming Bird · #8 10-14-2007, 01:48 AM

A few notes: I'm doing this solo, so everything is bass. And I have the gear to do it (I think). For this song I've been using my Michael Kelly five w/midi so much is possible though I only use effects at the beginning (which is looped) and for the outro. I figured out the beginning, and given my signal chain at the moment I use whammy + wah + delay, though the guitarist strums above the nut and goes phaser + delay.

The end is definitely a guitar + delay that is then slowed down by hand and they do it live which suggests some delay with the feedback up and the delay time lowered BUT I cannot figure out how to do it. Trial and error and all, I'm completely at a loss.

The BurgerMeister · #9 10-14-2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonicvi

What you want is an analog delay.

i'm going to agree with sonicvi and disagree with bongo.

i've gotten this sound with analog delay units.

i'm going to agree with bongo and disagree with sonicvi.

i've gotten this sound with digital delay units.

...

tweak the knobs, Mr. Bird. tweak 'em!

it's self-oscillation, no doubt. the sound that gets repeated to the point of self-oscillation does matter, so find a similar sound. (again, tweak!)

remember, also: that bit from the end of "karma police" could've been lifted from a 37 minute and 53 second recording of crazy noises. you may want to find a similar sound then sample it.

good luck! have fun!

SkiingLizard · #10 10-14-2007, 05:53 AM

I seem to remember Jonny saying somewhere that it was delayed guitar fed into a Mutronix Mutator filter and then back into the Mutator... but I might be wrong

bongomania · #11 10-14-2007, 10:29 AM

The Mutator can definitely get some crazy oscillation going on, especially if you feed it back into itself. And an analog delay is capable of the oscillation combined with the slowing-down effect. But neither of them is capable of holding a loop indefinitely and unchangingly. And neither of them does any bit crushing. I absolutely guarantee, without any doubt, that a digital delay was a part of that process.

It seems entirely plausible to me that the original audio in the sample did come from the guitar/Mutator feedback loop; but I'm certain the sample was taken with a digital device, looped for several bars, and then slowed down. While a tape machine can indeed do the slow-down effect, it does not sound at all the same, it's much more syrupy and "drunken" where the 12-bit digi sounds more glitchy and "broken".

Sir Edward V · #12 10-14-2007, 11:16 AM

definitely agree with digital over analog in this case

Swimming Bird · #13 10-14-2007, 12:34 PM

[by the by, I got confused at the beginning -- the intro I'm talking about was actually from Lucky, so please disregard that]

Okey, so delay >> mutator fed back into the mutator? Neat, but how am I gonna do that?

The closest I've been able to get is by kicking my DD-6 set at 800ms through output B (which doubles the delay time, I think) with delay at half, feedback and level at three-fourths, then increasing level and very slowly increasing delay time. It's a trick of timing as I'm having to move the time at the exact right time and very slowly. I can't get the modulation sounds though...

I dunno, can someone else try it and see if we can come up with a definite method using just a delay?

bongomania · #14 10-14-2007, 12:54 PM

There are two separate things happening IMO.

(Incidentally, I'm not trying to be a blowhard here. I think I'm 99% certain about this stuff, but please apply a big "IMO" to all my comments on this.)

1) a sound is created using multiple fx feeding back. The delay-filter combo sounds highly plausible.

2) a digital delay takes a 1-second sample of that sound and holds it in an indefinite loop. Then, at the very end, the player turns the rate knob down slowly, and then mutes the signal at the very end.

Thing # 2 sounds so much like results I've gotten with a DeltaLab Effectron II that I would not be surprised if that's exactly what they used. All you do is feed it audio and then hit the infinite hold button, then adjust the rate. Although ART and a bunch of other companies made very similar products around that time, and there are plugin emulations widely available.

I'd say you need to either:
(a) use two fx, one to create an approximation of the sound and the other to loop it; or
(b) use the one delay you have to approximate only one of the two qualities:
-self-oscillation, which maybe you would just fade out with a volume pedal, without the even sound of the looping or the slowdown at the end; or
-looping with slow-down, in which case the actual sound being looped might be some other random chord/sound from your guitarist or a sampler unit or whatever.

Swimming Bird · #15 10-29-2007, 07:13 AM

Since I'm GASing for a Korg Kaoss Pad really hard, I've been watching demos on the youtube and it seems easily possible to get the end of Karma Police by using a delay and its signal mute function.

Also, when I brought up Kaoss Pads a while ago, someone mentioned Radiohead, so maybe they use it live for Karma Police...? In any case, I've got GAS that much worse.

dirtgroove · #16 10-29-2007, 10:36 AM

I'm pretty sure it's a line 6 dl4, that's what one of the guitarists uses live to do it. I can reproduce it pretty well with it.

The Kaoss Pad is an entire world of madness- only used one a few times at a mates house, big thumbs up.

SkiingLizard · #17 10-29-2007, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swimming Bird

Also, when I brought up Kaoss Pads a while ago, someone mentioned Radiohead, so maybe they use it live for Karma Police...? In any case, I've got GAS that much worse.

I think OK Computer pre dates the Kaoss pad by a bit so it's not on the recorded version (OKComputer was recorded in 96/97) they definitely do have Kaoss Pad(s) and may be using this live for Karma Police... they are definitely using it to sample Thom's voice during some of the KidA/Amnesiac tracks live - Like Spinning Plates for example

ikkim12 · #18 10-29-2007, 07:01 PM

the sound is created by guitar so i dont think it's gonna b easy to duplicate that sound..
(ed makes that sound in live. in glastonbury 03, he made sound by using line 6 green delay pedal but it was different sound compared to the sounds in cd)
i think ed created that sound by using some rack delay in cd

asherthemachine · #19 10-30-2007, 12:51 PM

ed plays that part, not johnny ( who is playing rhodes at the time) and not Thom. From all the live stuff ive seen, i think this is how it pans out. Back when it came out, Ed was using rack stuff to create the sound. i dont know exactly what, but there is a live video from Letterman that shows it pretty well ( its also on "Meeting peiople is easy", radioheads documentary). In more recent videos ive seen Ed switch to his board to produce the sound, and his 2 boards together are nuts, so i cant even begin to guess how exactly. just my 2 cents

asherthemachine · #20 10-30-2007, 12:59 PM

also, no kaoss pad on karma police live, or ever i dont think. and bongo seems 100% correct. not that he wouldnt be, haha. although there is no kaoss pad on that song, they use it heavily from thereon out. almost half of their stuff from kid a/ amnesic/ hail to the thief/ and even in rainbows ( the new one) has a kaoss pad. johnny loves using it on thoms voice, and thats how they achieve such rad vocal mods. but i have never once seen it used on any guitar. watch live at glastonbury in '03, and it will explain a lot of their gear. they are the greatest band on the planet, imho.