The legal situation of Clones

Chris V. · #1 11-10-2007, 05:12 PM

Hello everyone!

What's the legal situation of making copies of effects pedals?

So, for example, if I pay someone to make me a copy of pedal XYZ and he charges me $xyz for the service.

Is this legal? Can he open a 'Bay shop and sell them as "clones"? Can he make a website where he sells them as "clones"?

Thanks!
Christopher.

bongomania · #2 11-10-2007, 06:36 PM

Here's the dividing line: If the circuit design is currently under copyright or other legal protection of ownership, then anyone else who copies it is "breaking the law" or at a minimum disrespecting whoever owns the design. OTOH if the circuit design is not currently under anyone's particular legal ownership, then anyone can clone it to their heart's content.

Of course the reality is people are constantly overstepping that line; whether it is an "issue" for them to do so is dependent on their own conscience or the legal actions of the owner of the design.

Zappstorius · #3 11-10-2007, 07:01 PM

I'm sure people making clone pedals and selling them for a profit are breaking some laws (patent I assume), but it's not like pedals are the only thing that people are "copy". I see P-Bass copies, golf club copies and everything in between.

markjazzbassist · #4 11-10-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

Of course the reality is people are constantly overstepping that line; whether it is an "issue" for them to do so is dependent on their own conscience or the legal actions of the owner of the design.

+1

great point Bongo

bassitude! · #5 11-10-2007, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

If the circuit design is currently under copyright or other legal protection of ownership

Circuit designs are not covered by copyright, and practically no stompboxes are covered by patents (because they aren't eligible).

This is why cloning is such an ethical minefield. There is really nothing protecting anyone.

Stu L. · #6 11-10-2007, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

Here's the dividing line: If the circuit design is currently under copyright or other legal protection of ownership, then anyone else who copies it is "breaking the law" or at a minimum disrespecting whoever owns the design. OTOH if the circuit design is not currently under anyone's particular legal ownership, then anyone can clone it to their heart's content.

Of course the reality is people are constantly overstepping that line; whether it is an "issue" for them to do so is dependent on their own conscience or the legal actions of the owner of the design.

Yes, but a few component values are changed, then it is no longer the same circuit. All too often, that's all that is done.

bongomania · #7 11-10-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassitude!

Circuit designs are not covered by copyright, and practically no stompboxes are covered by patents (because they aren't eligible).

This is why cloning is such an ethical minefield. There is really nothing protecting anyone.

Hmmm... I guess then it becomes a question of "intellectual property" and aesthetic design. Intellectual property is a broad concept open to a lot of interpretation, but OTOH many court cases have hinged on that phrase. And aesthetic design can be copyrighted. And then there's the ethics issue.

So e.g. I could make a "Bansamp Baradriver" or a "Bvex Bully Bammoth" and change the physical appearance just enough, and the originators can't win a court case against me unless they can prove "intellectual property". And as we know from another "B" brand, that can be hard to prove or win. But that doesn't make it OK, nor does it mean that a line isn't being crossed.

TheBassBetween · #8 11-10-2007, 09:22 PM

I believe it's legal for someone to wire up an effects box that sounds like X and market it as "Compare to X" or something of the sort.

bongomania · #9 11-10-2007, 09:32 PM

Well yeah, "legal".

I suppose it would be different IMO if the method used to copy the sound was not just a direct physical copy of the original design.

The Lurker · #10 11-10-2007, 10:34 PM

or to bill it as 'based on a' rather than "nose-to-nuts-copy of a"

Were I making pedals these days, I'd be sorely tempted to pot the innards in epoxy just to annoy would-be clonemeisters.

bongomania · #11 11-10-2007, 10:57 PM

Here's a funny one: I mucked around inside a Keeley compressor in an attempt to mod it, and found that he had made it almost impossible to access the solder side of the circuitboard. I literally disassembled every part that was not soldered down, and still couldn't lift the board. I'm convinced I would have had to de-solder the pots and LED in order to finally get in there. The punchline? The Keeley is just a clone in the first place!

Chris V. · #12 11-11-2007, 01:45 AM

Alright. I guess I'm in deep waters, but not quite over my head yet. That's a good place to be, I think.

Thanks guys.

Afterthought - this could be an interesting debate...

BmoreTele · #13 11-11-2007, 10:33 AM

If a pedal is no longer commercially available (for example - Lovetone, Way Huge, or other older discontinued pedals) then go for it.

If it is currently being made and sold by someone else, making a clone would be reaching into someone's pocket.

IMHO

Chris V. · #14 11-11-2007, 10:46 AM

What if it was a Guyatone BR-2?

olaff421 · #15 11-11-2007, 11:00 AM

If you do a BR-2, figure out another knob to put on there. I really like mine, but I feel there needs to be a shape knob or something. Sensitivity and speed just isn't enough.

Chris V. · #16 11-11-2007, 11:08 AM

Alright... The thing is, I'm getting a guy to build me one. He's going to be doing some research and he'll come back to me with a price. He said that he'll keep working on it as long as I'm not happy with it - that means I can talk to him about a "shape knob".

Thanks olaff421!

niftydog · #17 11-11-2007, 03:49 PM

One-off's or out of production pedals? No complaints from me!

But if you plan to capitalise on the good reputation and hard earned success of another manufacturer, especially the boutique operators, then think again.

olaff421 · #18 11-11-2007, 11:07 PM

I love my BR-2! But there just seems like there needs to be another knob. 'Shape' is the only thing I can think of to call it, look at some other autowah/envelop filters to get a better idea of what I'm talking about. Have you played an actual BR-2? It might help to get your hands on the real thing to give you a better idea of what you could add to it.

Chris V. · #19 11-12-2007, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niftydog

One-off's or out of production pedals? No complaints from me!

But if you plan to capitalise on the good reputation and hard earned success of another manufacturer, especially the boutique operators, then think again.

This is purely for my own usage. Only the guy who is making it will make a modest amount of money.

Yeah, I'm going to look into some other pedals like the BR-2 to see what functions should be added. It's definitely the best of its kind though... That's why I'd want a clone of that one.