max cycling msp rig for effects and everything else and beyond...

[TOOL460002]

so, this is more of a hypothetical question, and a direction that i see myself going in a few years (once a couple of my friends get phds in math/physics):

has anyone considered ditching all of your effects, and building a 4u i7 computer to run all of your effects? this question comes from a friend of mine (guitarist [not a guitard]) who wants to sweep into a synthesizer. as best i know, no analogue synth can handle that kind of speed. my only idea is to use a rackmount pc to do this (using max msp).

has this ever been done? i really see this as being the future of all effects. i know folks use it for video/imagery on screens related to dj stuff or whatever, but you could also use it to trigger events, ie- hitting some note on a bend that is not even a quarter tone, and that would let loose a sound clip or whatever you wanted.

this is something i see myself doing in the next ten years, pending my ability to do so. a 4u rackmount pc could put an effects board to rest.

thanks!

[bongomania]

Yeah, people have done this since the late '70s, when computers started to be more accessible at universities and such, leading into the '80s and personal computers. I remember seeing this sort of thing when I was a kid, back in the Stone Age.

The big limitations are the learning curve of programming this sort of device, and the (still) primitive tracking speeds we haven't overcome.

[Taylor Livingston]

Anybody else going all software?

I later went to an experimental music festival, and one of the groups included a laptop guy, presumably using Max or Puredata. He couldn't go on because of technical issues. I've since gone back to hardware. I still like the idea in theory, though.

[Luther Blissett]

I've just started learning max/msp. I've seen people do the craziest things with them, also in live situations. Unfortunately I'm still very far away from getting sound out of it.

i'm not planning to replace my pedalboard with it. But I believe one could do that, provided you have enough cpu power, ram, and a good ada converter...

there's also a lot of other programs you could use, pure data, supercollider, or something simpler like ableton...

[pbass2]

I have been using Max/MSP/Jitter--or rather "learning" it----it is deep!
Using video to trigger midi information, parameters of a granular synth patch, etc. etc. Mainly in the interest of creating generative music. I use it along with Logic, or on it's own mostly.
As I sit here, a patch I'm building is tracking selected pixels from my live video camera feed (pointed at my bald head and is triggering random notes from an arabic scale, into a standalone instance of the NI Massive synth on a TB303 sound. It's crazy fun.
What you describe is certainly feasible, and it's more about getting the midi information from your axe into Max. Then you could do really just about anything you could imagine with it.
But if you just want to trigger soft synths/samplers with a guitar/bass you certainly don't have to go as far as Max/MSP. There's plenty of midi interfaces for guitar/bass out there you could try out. Tracking issues and all that are a consideration, and there's gobs of factors affecting the results on the computer side, but sometimes the unpredictability is the coolest part!

[Luther Blissett]

the day is coming that we'll be swapping patches instead of asking for clips in the effects forum

[bongomania]

Yeah, my buddies who play exclusively electronic music already do that, and actually there are websites laden with awesome consumer-made patches for the various softsynths out there. The only trouble for us bassists is the lack of a really good interface.

[TOOL460002]

Originally Posted by bongomania

The big limitations are the learning curve of programming this sort of device, and the (still) primitive tracking speeds we haven't overcome.

1. i am VERY new to max msp, in that i sat around with a couple friends who are more math people than i am, and we still got almost nowhere in a few hours, so pardon any (more) stupid questions.

2. im a bit confused about the tracking issues described. pbass, youre saying that you need to get the midi data from the instrument first, and then put that into max? as in, a midi pickup or whatever? as best i know, that sort of thing is limited by speed, which is what im looking for.

3. can you forgo the midi part and just run your bass direct into a sound card, and then into a cpu, and then back out? thats what i was hoping for. i was thinking of building an insane rack mount cpu for this. ive only built one pc, but im pretty sure i could put together something crazy like a quiet i7 with a ridiculous amount of ram, and either a digidesign or maudio interface. is this not possible? would this track better than something like an eventide eclipse? i would think so, on account of the processing power, but i dont know much about the eclipse either.

Originally Posted by pbass2

What you describe is certainly feasible, and it's more about getting the midi information from your axe into Max. Then you could do really just about anything you could imagine with it.

But if you just want to trigger soft synths/samplers with a guitar/bass you certainly don't have to go as far as Max/MSP. There's plenty of midi interfaces for guitar/bass out there you could try out.

4. as for triggering events, i know a midi floor trigger type thing would be a very simple way to trigger a sample or whatever event you wanted. i just thought itd be cool to bend a note to a certain point, and that itd trigger an event somewhere in there. by that i mean, i know a is 440hz, but if i understand max properly, you could make it trigger something (an effect, an event, video stuff, whatever) at 445hz, or some other specific non-standard western note. a floor midi setup is still on my wish list, and will probably come before a costly cpu build.

Originally Posted by conical johnson

I later went to an experimental music festival, and one of the groups included a laptop guy, presumably using Max or Puredata. He couldn't go on because of technical issues.

5. thats also a huge concern. i refuse to use an apple, and while i havent had problems with xp pro or my pc, i am not 100% confident in it. generating sounds from max is not what im looking for as much as manipulating a bass or guitar input.

6. and on a kind of unrelated note, since all sound can be represented by a waveform, and all waveforms can be described by a mathematical formula, then its theoretically possible to replicate any sound, even the human voice via some formula. i wont be going past multi-variable calculus, nor will i be taking any programming classes, but i may change my tune in the future. the possibilities are endless with this stuff. too bad the learning curve on this program sucks... thanks for all the excellent responses.

[pbass2]

Originally Posted by TOOL460002

2. im a bit confused about the tracking issues described. pbass, youre saying that you need to get the midi data from the instrument first, and then put that into max? as in, a midi pickup or whatever? as best i know, that sort of thing is limited by speed, which is what im looking for.

3. can you forgo the midi part and just run your bass direct into a sound card, and then into a cpu, and then back out? thats what i was hoping for. i was thinking of building an insane rack mount cpu for this. ive only built one pc, but im pretty sure i could put together something crazy like a quiet i7 with a ridiculous amount of ram, and either a digidesign or maudio interface. is this not possible? would this track better than something like an eventide eclipse? i would think so, on account of the processing power, but i dont know much about the eclipse either.
4. as for triggering events, i know a midi floor trigger type thing would be a very simple way to trigger a sample or whatever event you wanted. i just thought itd be cool to bend a note to a certain point, and that itd trigger an event somewhere in there. by that i mean, i know a is 440hz, but if i understand max properly, you could make it trigger something (an effect, an event, video stuff, whatever) at 445hz, or some other specific non-standard western note. a floor midi setup is still on my wish list, and will probably come before a costly cpu build.
5. thats also a huge concern. i refuse to use an apple, and while i havent had problems with xp pro or my pc, i am not 100% confident in it. generating sounds from max is not what im looking for as much as manipulating a bass or guitar input.

It sounded to me like you wanted to be able to use your bass to trigger patches in Max(which can be anything--synths, effects, samplers, patches designed to trigger/control any number of OTHER things, like video, etc.--Heck, you could control the stage lights with your bass so yeah, midi would be the easiest, most controllable method, so you'd need a pickup/midi interface of some kind, like:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...63&ParentId=53
I haven't tried anything like that with a bass in ages, so I have no idea how well they work. They must have gotten better.

Of course, sure, you could send in audio to Max, and then build patches to interpret that information in all kinds of different ways, to achieve different things. I'm sure you could get some interesting and very unexpected results.
My advice for Max/MSP (and Jitter), is to spend time on the Cycling 74 forum, and work through as many of the tutorials as you can(you can demo it for 30 days). What I ended up doing (and I'm still just taking baby steps with it myself), is I found a local guy who is a Max/MSP whiz kid and I hire him to tutor me. Sometimes we work on the basics, but sometimes I have a specific thing I want to try, and jump way ahead into pretty deep stuff, and I'm learning so much more, so much faster this way, than just doing the tutorials and struggling through. And in most cases, we're very often taking already existing patches as our starting point.

The best thing is you already have some ideas in your head that you want to get to---that's the best way to learn Max I feel--to have an application in your head for it.

[Taylor Livingston]

Pitch-to-midi is not at all necessary. However, unless you like clicking on a mouse during a live show, you will need a MIDI foot controller for switching patches and controlling parameters with expression pedals.

If you want to trigger synths, there are WAY better and more reliable ways to do this than a laptop running Max. Even if you want to do granular synthesis, etc.

If you just want to manipulate the sound of your bass, split it 8 different ways, cut it up, paste it back together, play it half backwards and half forwards, at x3 speed, etc. you can do all that without pitch-to-midi.

[TOOL460002]

thanks for all the replies and reassurance that my fear of diving into the deep end is only natural. talking to my friends, it seems like audio generation would be an easier way to start. it also means i might need to take some higher level math courses post-graduation to get hardcore in max. i think my version is unlimited... so... its only uphill from here, right?

its just intimidating looking at those (allegedly) mu-ziq patches on google image searches, because theyre way beyond my comprehension. video is not my concern. signal manipulation a la an analogue synth but with way faster and more accurate tracking is, but it seems i should start small.

again, thank you for your confirmation that my dreams are not impossible, and that there are different ways to complete my various goals. its time to hit the books and maybe snag a book to teach myself higher level math. i really dont want to get into programming that much... eh...

thanks!

[pbass2]

Originally Posted by TOOL460002

thanks for all the replies and reassurance that my fear of diving into the deep end is only natural. talking to my friends, it seems like audio generation would be an easier way to start. it also means i might need to take some higher level math courses post-graduation to get hardcore in max. i think my version is unlimited... so... its only uphill from here, right?

its just intimidating looking at those (allegedly) mu-ziq patches on google image searches, because theyre way beyond my comprehension. video is not my concern. signal manipulation a la an analogue synth but with way faster and more accurate tracking is, but it seems i should start small.

again, thank you for your confirmation that my dreams are not impossible, and that there are different ways to complete my various goals. its time to hit the books and maybe snag a book to teach myself higher level math. i really dont want to get into programming that much... eh...

thanks!

Not sure exactly what you mean by "audio generation"---could imply many things, but just keep in mind, lots of the Max/MSP users who are actually "on the radar"--artists you might read about who say they use it---aren't necessarily hardcore experts, programmers, etc. MOST have taken a few existing patches and experimented until it did what they wanted it to do (or, more often, they landed on something they didn't expect and went down that path. It's all good. You don't need to be a math head---I'm a total math idiot for example, but after several months of study, I consider Max/MSP/Jitter to be part of my professional quiver as a fulltime composer/player. I've done paying gigs with it, FWIW. Can I explain everything that's going on under the hood? Absolutely not. Not by a loooonnng shot . . .
Just don't hold back--the more you try these things, the more ideas you get, and things you want to reach for. And by all means, don't worry about your bass necessarily being in the equation

[TOOL460002]

Originally Posted by pbass2

Not sure exactly what you mean by "audio generation"---could imply many things, but just keep in mind, lots of the Max/MSP users who are actually "on the radar"--artists you might read about who say they use it---aren't necessarily hardcore experts, programmers, etc. MOST have taken a few existing patches and experimented until it did what they wanted it to do (or, more often, they landed on something they didn't expect and went down that path. It's all good. You don't need to be a math head---I'm a total math idiot for example, but after several months of study, I consider Max/MSP/Jitter to be part of my professional quiver as a fulltime composer/player. I've done paying gigs with it, FWIW. Can I explain everything that's going on under the hood? Absolutely not. Not by a loooonnng shot . . .
Just don't hold back--the more you try these things, the more ideas you get, and things you want to reach for. And by all means, don't worry about your bass necessarily being in the equation

time to bring this up front...

by "noise generation" i mean having max create a tone or whatever. and, yes, ive seen the google images of the mu-ziq patch (legit or not), and its just overwhelming. its like when i had played bass for like three years and heard wooten/hamm. not like i want to play like them, but i knew how much ahead of me they were.

as far as math/programming, i bet a phd could make any max musician look like a joke. thats only a guess...

so, heres my question: does anyone know if there is a musician who uses max as a digital effect? thats what i want. i know its possible, but ive never heard of it. thanks!