Moog MF-104Z Delay - Tap Tempo-able?

[kevteop]

Does anyone know if there's any way to hook something up via the delay time CV input to provide tap tempo?

[fightthepower]

Currently, there isn't a way to make it happen, not even with the new mp201, though with the 201 and a bit of programming, you can set up 'presets' with given heel down and toe down values to get a couple delay times programmed in(ie 'x' volts at heel-down= 100ms, and 'y' volts at toe-down= 300ms), but that seems to be the best option right now. The hypothetical numbers would have to be individually calculated as each delay is somewhat unique, so two 104z's would give two different delay times (albeit very close I assume) when fed the same voltage. Check out this thread for some more technical info on the topic-

http://www.moogmusic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5710

[kevteop]

Yeah I figured it would have to be a clever controller to send exactly the right CV, wasn't sure if it was possible. Thanks for the link.

[dannybuoy]

I'm sure someone clever could build a tap-tempo-to-CV device...

[fightthepower]

I'm sure they could, but that clever person would have to build it for a specific 104z-- As I read it, moog would have to calibrate each and every 104z they produced to specific standards, for a clever-tap-tempo-device to be able to be made, that worked on 104z's- As it stands now, if you were to send your 104z to a clever guy to make the clever device and he made one that worked- you wouldn't be able to use it on other 104z's... well you could use it, but it wouldn't reproduce the same delay times per volt.

[JohnDavisNYC]

trim pot... then you could adjust for each 104?

interesting idea, for sure...

john

[Taylor Livingston]

This could be done, but it would make an already expensive delay into a really expensive delay. Unfortunately the imprecision isn't just in differences between individual pedals, but also temperature and power supply fluctuations, so even if you dialed it in for your pedal, it could be thrown off by a hot day or bad power at a club.

[bassbmx]

Does anyone know how the Memory Lane 2 tap-tempo works?

[almix12]

is it even possible to have totally analog tap tempo? I cant even imagine how it would work.
like the empress tremolo, the circuit is analog, but the tap tempo feature is chip-controlled.

[Taylor Livingston]

Well, you need to understand some terms. "Chip" means integrated circuit (or IC), which just means a little black box with several (or many) electronic components built in. A chip can be analog or digital. An analog delay uses a BBD chip to do its thing. This is an analog chip. Pretty much no complex effects are all-discrete (meaning they don't use ICs). Analog choruses, flangers, phasers, vibratos, and even many distortions all use chips. So chip does not mean digital.

The Memory Lane 2 uses an all-analog signal path, but the tap tempo is controlled digitally. There's nothing wrong with it, and there's no reason to use analog for control signals unless you want to exploit some quirk of analog stuff (some people like the "imperfections" of analog sequencers, etc.

Moog doesn't seem to have any qualms about using digital control. The MP-201 is digital (although it puts out CV). The problem with the 104z is that it is set up for CV control, so to control it without modding the circuit itself, you need to use CV and this is where the trouble starts. If Moog had designed the circuit itself to accept digital control, it would be much easier to implement.

[bigchiefbc]

Originally Posted by conical johnson

Well, you need to understand some terms. "Chip" means integrated circuit (or IC), which just means a little black box with several (or many) electronic components built in. A chip can be analog or digital. An analog delay uses a BBD chip to do its thing. This is an analog chip. Pretty much no complex effects are all-discrete (meaning they don't use ICs). Analog choruses, flangers, phasers, vibratos, and even many distortions all use chips. So chip does not mean digital.

The Memory Lane 2 uses an all-analog signal path, but the tap tempo is controlled digitally. There's nothing wrong with it, and there's no reason to use analog for control signals unless you want to exploit some quirk of analog stuff (some people like the "imperfections" of analog sequencers, etc.

Moog doesn't seem to have any qualms about using digital control. The MP-201 is digital (although it puts out CV). The problem with the 104z is that it is set up for CV control, so to control it without modding the circuit itself, you need to use CV and this is where the trouble starts. If Moog had designed the circuit itself to accept digital control, it would be much easier to implement.

Also, the MURF has tap tempo with any momentary switch(which I assume is digitally controlled), and yet it also has a CV in for rate, as well. Obviously Moog has figured out a way to integrate digital tap tempo with analog control of the rate parameter. I've always wondered why they haven't integrated this into the 104 as well.

[Taylor Livingston]

Yeah, but I'm guessing the Murf is digitally controlled (the sequences and everything), and there is a CV->digital conversion happening for your CV signal.

Moog could easily change the delay to have tap tempo. The question is whether there are enough people willing to pay for it, when the delay is already very expensive. My guess is that there aren't enough people to make the development worthwhile to Moog.

Now, kludging it together on the user's end is indeed possible, but again I doubt anyone would be willing to pay enough for it to make the development worth it.

There are many MIDI->CV converters. Someone could make a MIDI tap tempo footswitch which turns the periodicity of taps into a CC and plug that into a CV converter, mess with the values for awhile, and get something serviceable. I don't know how accurate it could be made, but it could get close I'm sure.