Motown era: compression?

ninepoundjammer · #1 09-25-2010, 11:57 PM

Never thought about it until just now, but did my favorite motown era recordings (Jamerson etc.) have compression on the bass? My guess is no, but it's way before my time. I know a big part of the sound is tube compression on the amps and likely foam under the bridge, but were comp units typical in studio work back then? Can't imagine an engineer not using compression in the studio these days.

Ah the good old days...

SFjonstarr · #2 09-26-2010, 01:13 AM

I just pulled out some reference material from my time at audio engineering school.

During mixing, master 3 track tapes (rhythm instruments on 1, "sweetening" strings/horns on 2, vocals on 3) were compiled together using [lead engineer Lawrence] Horn's process of bouncing or reducing a three track rhythm reel, two tracks of brass and woodwinds, and mono tracks of strings and vocals. This procedure, with Horn adding signal processing at each stage of mixdown, necessitated the rhythm track being bounced 4 times, the brass/horns twice, and the strings once. The tools at the engineers disposal were state-of-the-art Pultec eqalizers and filters, Teletronix limiter/compressors, a small reverb chamber, simple tape delay and 3 faders. A partial result of this procedure was that the heavy amounts of limiting, compression, and tone shaping on the multitrack master allowed the mastering engineers to cut larger grooves, giving Motown EP's and LP's some of the loudest and punchiest low end of any label in the mid-60's.

I don't know the original source of this info (I just have it in a big binder of materials relating to the history of music production).

SFjonstarr · #3 09-26-2010, 01:14 AM

And the Teletronix was the model that became the LA2A.

bongomania · #4 09-26-2010, 01:54 AM

Yep.

And in case it's not clear, the compression wasn't just from the LA-2A, but from the whole mixing and mastering process. The recording desk and EQ's were all tube and transformer-based, and the saturation of that gear with strong bass signals caused compression; the tape itself also got saturated, causing strong compression; and every time tracks got bounced, the saturation increased. Even if they had never used a "compressor" per se, they ended up with a heck of a lot of compression just from recording the way they did, on the gear they had.

ninepoundjammer · #5 09-26-2010, 08:28 AM

Cool. I've learned something today.

Swimming Bird · #6 09-26-2010, 09:25 AM

So how would one go about emulating the mixing equipment saturation/compression?

I'm thinking a tube (or tube-like) OD set near minimum... Maybe a BBD delay with limited headroom set near overload?

metalinthenight · #7 09-26-2010, 09:39 AM

very neat!

Jared Lash · #8 09-26-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swimming Bird

So how would one go about emulating the mixing equipment saturation/compression?

I'm thinking a tube (or tube-like) OD set near minimum... Maybe a BBD delay with limited headroom set near overload?

I had very good results running a Holy Fire into a Retrospec Squeezebox.

Using a passive bass with flats I found it far more convincing than the VT Bass for old school/Motown sounds.
Before moving to the Berg NV412 I also used an Empress Para EQ to round out the sound.

The Squeezebox is hard to find and expensive but I wonder if something like the Markbass Compressore might work nearly as well.

bongomania · #9 09-26-2010, 01:05 PM

The thing about tape saturation particularly is that it is a hard brick wall of limiting, but this limiting occurs in a smooth, progressive, organic way that is incredibly difficult to emulate with a simple circuit. In essence it's like compression with a "soft knee" that has a logarithmic curve toward an infinity:1 ratio. The Retrospec, Markbass, and Effectrode tube comps do come "close enough for government work", and adding a nice smooth (non-gritty) overdrive can get you even closer. The Valley Dyna-Mite is also pretty cool. Neve makes a tape-saturation emulator, but it's quite expensive and I haven't tried it. DDyna has been developing some effects along this concept, but he hasn't "struck gold" quite yet. I do think he's on the right track though.

giacomini · #10 09-26-2010, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

The thing about tape saturation particularly is that it is a hard brick wall of limiting, but this limiting occurs in a smooth, progressive, organic way that is incredibly difficult to emulate with a simple circuit. In essence it's like compression with a "soft knee" that has a logarithmic curve toward an infinity:1 ratio. The Retrospec, Markbass, and Effectrode tube comps do come "close enough for government work", and adding a nice smooth (non-gritty) overdrive can get you even closer. The Valley Dyna-Mite is also pretty cool. Neve makes a tape-saturation emulator, but it's quite expensive and I haven't tried it. DDyna has been developing some effects along this concept, but he hasn't "struck gold" quite yet. I do think he's on the right track though.

I haven't tried the comps you mentioned here, but I'm very inclined to dbx's OverEasy knee when it comes to "soft knee". To me, I still have to hear a better comp than the 160A, but again, I didn't try the ones you're mentioning here, plus, the 160A is a rackmount, so those must win in the real estate field...

Jared Lash · #11 09-26-2010, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by giacomini

I haven't tried the comps you mentioned here, but I'm very inclined to dbx's OverEasy knee when it comes to "soft knee". To me, I still have to hear a better comp than the 160A, but again, I didn't try the ones you're mentioning here, plus, the 160A is a rackmount, so those must win in the real estate field...

I dig dbx compressors a lot (and the Maxon which is like a dbx in pedal form) but they are the other side of the continuum from the compressors bongo mentioned.

For emulating tape saturation fat sounding tube comps that strongly color your sound are what's needed whereas the dbx comps excel at clean, transparent, even "punchy" compression.

jazzgeek79 · #12 09-26-2010, 03:54 PM

My understanding is that part of the motown sound was distortion from how hard they were hiting the tape. I have read that in order to eliminate signal to noise ratio motown engineers would try to hit the tape as hard as they could with signal and ended up "clipping" which on tape, as has been previously stated in this thread, sounds like a nice compressed effect with little audible distortion bet instead a kind of pleasant crunch. A distressor compressor might work well but now you are adding a lot of money to your rig.

SFjonstarr · #13 09-26-2010, 04:17 PM

The tape simulator recording nerds talk about the most is the AnaMod ATS-1 Analog Tape Simulator. I would love to try one in person but haven't yet. The price is kind of prohibitive.

toneseeker · #14 12-12-2011, 10:02 AM

Hi I'm bringing up this this old thread to see if anyone has been having success re-creating the compressed distorted motown bass sound in a live rig? I have been coming close, but my solid state gear doesn't get quite the right squish and my tube gear is a little too fuzzy.
The sound I hear that I'm really after is in the recording of "Steal Away" by Johnny Taylor
Johnny Taylor-Steal Away(1969) - YouTube
Thanks and Happy Holidays!

toneseeker · #15 12-12-2011, 10:06 AM

Ooops not to offend anybody I beleive Johnny Taylor was a Stax recording artist but Stax and Motown both had awesome bass players and production!

kraigo · #16 12-12-2011, 12:01 PM

I'd look for an analog optical compressor. I think BBE and Joe Meek both make one.

KO

etoncrow · #17 12-12-2011, 12:11 PM

Johnnie Taylor was with Stax; signature hit was "Who's Making Love....". Probably had Duck Dunn on bass as Booker T. & the MG's backed most all the Volt/Stax artists live and in the studio. Duck Dunn was known for his three T's: Time, Tone and Touch. In Jack Bruce's instructional video Jack talks of his own heavy handedness and says he will never have the soft touch of Duck Dunn. That is where much of Duck's "sound" came from...his touch.

u84six · #18 12-12-2011, 08:59 PM

At home, I have a UA LA-610 MKII and I use it with all my recordings. When used with my '62 P bass and flatwound strings, it sounds exactly like Jamerson's studio bass sound. Live, I use an Empress compressor pedal going into my Fender TB-1200 and I can get pretty close to my studio sound. My live sound is generally the Motown bass sound. With a switch of the bass (to my RIC), and a few adjustments to the compressor knobs and the TB-1200, I can easily get McCartney post Revolver.

metaball · #19 12-12-2011, 10:08 PM

i recall a documentary where an engineer who was interviewed about some old famous recordings from that era said they didn't have a compressor, the "compressor" was him riding the faders live as the track was captured.

DeadPoet · #20 12-14-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaball

i recall a documentary where an engineer who was interviewed about some old famous recordings from that era said they didn't have a compressor, the "compressor" was him riding the faders live as the track was captured.

this. Other stuff that helps:
- his playing: 90% of an equal tone comes from the player playing evenly
- the instrument/setup: dead strings setup high have very little dynamics
- tube di: tubes compress your sound
- capturing medium: tape - tape compresses your sound

All small stuff but when added up makes a huge difference.

Herwig