Musket V2 and SFX X&M - no problem blending here!

**DosiYanarchy** · #1 06-20-2010, 02:06 AM

Hey Guys,

I've read that the Blackout Effectors Musket inverts the phase of the signal which means unless you have a blender with phase-inverting capabilites (ie: Barge VB-jr) you will notice a massive signal drop.

I recently bought a SFX X&M (crossover/blend pedal allowing you to blend two signals and set the x-over Q manually) and I thought i'd give it a go with the musket so see what the 'out of phase' syndrome sounds like first hand so that I would know for future reference.

I would like to preface my findings with the fact that I attempted to use my Colorsound Bass Fuzz in the 'High' loop and found that I had to boost the volume of the 'Low' Loop by about 10db! and it still sounded like ass - I am making the assumption (as I have been lead to believe by Max at SFX) that my colorsound pedal also inverts the phase of the signal and that the X&M curently has no special phase inversion capabilites.

So today I though 'sod it' I'd like to try the musket blended and see how I get on:

Result?

Amazing - The X&M makes the musket, which is already crazy tweakable more versatile. - I do boost the 'Low' loop a little as most of the 'attack' is now boosted and distorted with the Musket, so I boost the lows to compensate.

The musket sounds 'clearer' to me now, but still an agressive fuzz that can melt faces.

What I really want to know is this:

Am I being a fool - the pedal sounds great in the X-M loop, should it not?

I think it was Dannybuoy who mentioned that the musket would cause a massive drop in signal if blended, and im not douting that, but I actually have to dial back the musket's volume now.

Maybe its the Crossover that negates the phase issue?

I'll happily post some clips shortly and let you judge, but I really want this to work and it sounds like it does with the musket.

Does anyone (ie: possilbly Bongomania, Silent Fly), have some insight into why this seems to work fine when I dont think it should.

dannybuoy · #2 06-20-2010, 02:31 AM

Blackout Effectors themselves confirmed to another TB'er that it's the boost built into the first stage of the Musket that flips the phase. Because with the X&M the clean and dirty channels operate on different frequency bands there is less phase cancellation going on, but it's a bit more complicated because a high fuzzed out E might still interact with a low clean E to some degree.

Anyway, if it sounds good it sounds good, and it sounds weak and awful with no volume through a Barge VB-Jr!

The Musket sounded like it had plenty of low end until you compare it with a pedal like the sfx Micro Fuzz which you can feel in your gut when it hits you! Tempted to get one of these X&M's myself!

bongomania · #3 06-20-2010, 02:34 AM

Here's my standard rant about phase issues:

Whether there is or isn't an inverting opamp will not directly predict how the signal will sound blended, because the wave shape of the effected signal may be different from the wave shape of the original signal, by any amount from a tiny smidge to a total dissimilarity. Additionally, the wave may be slightly out of sync due to lag through the circuit. Phase dropouts occur when the two signals are too similar in both shape and timing (but inverted).

So the inverting opamp can sometimes be an issue, but it is not a 1:1 thing.

So then say you've got a pedal where it is an issue, there is some audible phase cancellation. If you flip the phase of one of the signals by exactly 180 degrees, is there any guarantee that the two waves won't also interfere then? Nope--and in fact, sometimes that change can make the cancellation worse! It all depends on to what extent the waves happen to overlap in shape and timing.

If all we played was sine waves, then the inverting opamp thing would make sense always, and the phase inversion switch would make sense always. But we don't, and they don't.

The very best tool for correcting these dropouts is phase control with more options than just 0 degrees and 180 degrees. For example the FEA Mixer and the Little Labs PIP both offer continuous variability between those two points. I think I saw a preamp by ART or Presonus recently that also had that feature.

Otherwise, it's a crap shoot, with or without the switch.

**DosiYanarchy** · #4 06-20-2010, 03:18 AM

Hey thanks guys, the input is truly appreciated - like I said dan, I'm not doubting that the Musket inverts the phase and I think you're right that the X&M does negate this phase issue to some degree, so really i'm just saying that whatever effect that the phase inversion has on my tone when blended using X&M seems to be negliable, this seems to confirm, or at least align with what bongo said ie: maybe its not 'that' out of phase'.

As you're probably aware the Micro Fuzz is VERY similar to the Colorsound Bass Fuzz tonally (although has much better construction) - I find that the low end on these pedals can be sub-blowing (an exaggeration maybe, although not entirely unjustified

) but the mid range is a little lacking.

I'm still getting used to both the X&M and the MUSKET, I've just thrown the Bass Fuzz back into the mix, both in series with the Musket in the 'high' loop and in parallel in the 'low' loop. The combination when both are on sounds righteous, and louder than individually, although this could be due to a number of factors, the most obvious being that the Bass Fuzz has massivly scooped mids and that musket is set to full mid boost, so the combination of the two in parallel could be 'righting the others wrongs' as it were.

The X&M does something that i've not seen in stompbox form, is handbuilt and impeccaby designed, sizewise its on a little wider than the musket and I think its use as a valuble tool for Bass Players is going to become further known....unfortunately im just using it as a loop for 1 pedal at the moment but phase issues aside, you could run a pedalboard 'bi-amp' - blending effects in parrallel in different frequency bands - I think its gonna be great for alot of players, especially the ones building synth-like tones. I'm going to run my OC2 in the 'Low' and my Prunes & Custard (100% wet) int he high' Loop and see how that sounds.

I'm not affiliated with SFX - I just like their pedals.

dannybuoy · #5 06-20-2010, 04:00 AM

Yeah, I imagine that Colorsound in the low channel and the Musket in the high channel would sound brutal! You should get yourself down to the Basschat London Bash next week and bring it along!

**DosiYanarchy** · #6 06-20-2010, 04:01 AM

dude - I didnt even know!! you got a link to it?

dannybuoy · #7 06-20-2010, 04:08 AM

PM'ed!

Valerus · #8 06-20-2010, 04:35 AM

the sfx blender looks sick

**DosiYanarchy** · #9 06-20-2010, 05:26 AM

It is, but you kind of realise that some pedals still sound better with full range signal going in (I believe x-over occurs BEFORE signal is sent out).

I will set up a full review of it when i've really experimented with it.

dannybuoy · #10 06-20-2010, 06:14 AM

I bet it would sound good with the VT Bass, which farts out on heavy bass notes yet sounds great on the higher frequencies with the gain control past noon.

thugler · #11 06-20-2010, 01:47 PM

I have the barge pedal and I was wondering, what is the easiest way to sort out this problem? Is there an easy modification that would sort it out?

I'd quite like to blend the musket, even though theres plenty of low end, more so that I could tame it a bit and have it quietly roaring behind my clean tone.

Ayliffe · #12 06-20-2010, 01:57 PM

I tested blending the Musket with my ls-2 to see what the inverted sound would be like.... it honestly sounded the same

Silent Fly · #13 06-21-2010, 03:17 AM

I agree with a lot of things that have been said.

I think the most interesting idea is that because of the X&M splits above/below a fixed frequency the same signal is never present on both the signal paths at the same time.

I also agree with Bongomania: "it is not a 1:1 thing". After processing, the frequency content changes and even if a phase change takes place, it is not as straight forward as it might sound.

takfar · #14 06-22-2010, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayliffe

I tested blending the Musket with my ls-2 to see what the inverted sound would be like.... it honestly sounded the same

Blending clean and musket with an LS-2 sounded fine?

hmmm...

Ayliffe · #15 06-22-2010, 07:20 PM

ya man... i swear to **** it sounded exactly the same.. Now i was running it into my audio interface from my PBDDI rather than an amp if that changes anything. But ya it sounded fine.

takfar · #16 06-22-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ayliffe

ya man... i swear to **** it sounded exactly the same.. Now i was running it into my audio interface from my PBDDI rather than an amp if that changes anything. But ya it sounded fine.

I don't think it makes a difference.

I might try my hand at one. I'll miss the dry mode from the BBM (for semi-blending with other distortions, but the tasty mids might be enough to make up for the loss of it). I'd only blend with clean when covering certain songs that use clean+fuzz (muse), and if you say it works that way, there's a chance it might work over here. Damn GAS.