Need feedback on my rig please.

[fatbassman]

I play in a metal band, and I wanted to get some nasty sounds without loosing my bottom end. My thoughts were to keep the big Mesa on one side of a quaility A/B/Y switch to hold the bottom, then take my MarkBass and but some nasty high gain distorition on it - maybe a guitar distortion pedal like the Metalzone. What do you think? Will it work? Also, any feedback on what I have and am planning would be welcomed as well.

Thank you for helping - this is my first TB post - NOOB!!

[deekay911]

and your bass is going into the compressor - right?

[bongomania]

Many pros use that idea of separate amps for the clean and dirty channels, so that part is fine. It's also worth noting that there are high-gain distortion pedals which don't lose any low end- the Landmine and the 3XFX Fatman are two examples off the top of my head. My main thought about your proposed rig though is that the other effects may not be as useful in metal as you might think, unless we're talking operatic nu Euro dream metal or something. So buy them for personal enjoyment, but don't be surprised if you end up leaving them at home. If you're going for Tool/Muse type sounds, then consider putting all that stuff in the Markbass channel, since one of the key elements of that sort of synthy distorted hard rock tone is to have one amp channel completely clean, and the other handling the effects.

[atheos]

I would route the setup so that there would be A/B switch that acts as "A or A+B", then the A out into Fulltone and then directly into Mesa - in case the Fulltone doesn't kill the lows (which it shouldn't, after all it's a bass drive). Other effects (rev, trem, flanger etc.) go into Mesa's FX loop - it's there just for that purpose. Then from the switcher's B output into whatever-effects-you-might-want and into Markbass. You might want to turn the bass down from the Markbass to avoid phase problems with low frequencies.

But then one important thing: get a DI box (I recommend Countryman or BSS). Place it as the very first device in your signal chain on gigs - main output directly into PA and link output into compressor and the rest of the rig. You'll have 3 channels of bass then, Mesa and Markbass miked and clean direct out. If the AB switcher has a direct output that is unaffected by the switch itself that will do as well, the compressor before that won't do that much harm. The sound guy has then some control over your sound and you have a basic backup if all else fails. After all, should the Mesa blow up you'd end up without balls in your tone since the Markbass is adjusted for "special effects". MM + DI alone is already a win when it comes to kick-ass bass tone.

[René_Julien]

Just throwing an idea out here:

No A/B-switch, just a Y connection with a volume pedal in the Markbass loop.

[quigg]

He says that he just wants a distortion pedal that doesn't lose bottom, which is why he was considering A/B switching in the first place. My AGRO doesn't lose any bottom end and it gets pretty darn nasty, and you can turn it on and off with a footswitch. The metalzone on my GT-6B gives NASTY feedback unless the drive is turned way down, and then it loses all of it's sustain and body. AGRO is better IMHO/IME and you will save a ton of money and wont lose any of your bottom end, I can even do pinch harmonics with it. It's always funny to play a solo along with your guitar player. Right now I am on deployment so all I have is my walkabout scout but I go bass->comp->AGRO->active input. Metal.

[robisbass]

i think trying to balance 2 amps sound wise is tough unless you have a full-time sound man. I would simplify this.

I think you are either better off b-amping (not two amps but splitting the signal process chain and just run the distortion on the upper speakers, not the lows). It's a more simple set up (one amp, 2 mics or no mics).

In my experience I just EQ'ed the crap out of bass to keep the lows. (in other words I used a very different and extreme EQ when I hit the distortion pedal) Also, try to find a pedal made for bass with low knob of some kind. I had a couple (a boss and something I don't remember), which provided a lot of bass retention and/or boost. I used to compress everything too, but not I play clean, but I did a lot of distortion work in the nineties and I thought cranking the lows was the way to go. Just my two cents...

[fatbassman]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Many pros use that idea of separate amps for the clean and dirty channels, so that part is fine. It's also worth noting that there are high-gain distortion pedals which don't lose any low end- the Landmine and the 3XFX Fatman are two examples off the top of my head. My main thought about your proposed rig though is that the other effects may not be as useful in metal as you might think, unless we're talking operatic nu Euro dream metal or something. So buy them for personal enjoyment, but don't be surprised if you end up leaving them at home. If you're going for Tool/Muse type sounds, then consider putting all that stuff in the Markbass channel, since one of the key elements of that sort of synthy distorted hard rock tone is to have one amp channel completely clean, and the other handling the effects.

I think you're right.. I don't want to play techno metal. Thanks, you probably saved me a few hundred

What are your thoughts on the EBS Octaver, does it add anything to metal? Also what about DI boxes? Another poster added that a DI is pretty important... So important I should drop 300-400 on one like the EBS or the Radial? Do you think I need two channel instrument switching? Do you use it?

[bongomania]

I do use instrument switching- Lehle is my favorite, but they're hella expensive; you can get something 90% as good for 30% of the price by going with one of the small-time pedal builders like Barge or Loop-Master.

A DI is absolutely critical in live performance. A lot of people don't carry a DI because they're accustomed to the venue providing one, or they're accustomed to using the one built into their preamp or amp head. But if the venue didn't have one to use, or there wasn't a usable one on your amp, then it would suck to not have one in your gig bag.

Beyond that, even though each of your amps probably does have a DI output, that means either you need two PA mixer channels (one for each amp's DI) for yourself to get all the clean and effect signals to the PA, or you have to choose only one of them to go to the PA. Since you prob. want your clean bass in the PA, that would mean no fx channel in the PA.

But even beyond that, many soundmen would rather get your bass signal into the PA without any EQ or processing from the amp- that allows them to dial in the PA signal perfectly without fighting your EQ, and without messing up the PA EQ every time you adjust your amp. That's one reason to have a separate DI box, so that you can go:

bass --> tuner/mute --> DI
DI XLR --> PA
DI 1/4" --> compressor, A/B/Y switcher

Yes, that means no "Mesa tone" in the PA, and that's one of the big problems discussed every day in the Amps and Live Sound forums. The only "easy" solution is to mic the Mesa cab, and send yet another channel to the PA.

If that's all just too much to deal with -and it usually is- then you might consider leaving the Markbass at home, using a blender-loop pedal as a substitute for the two channel setup, and running the full range output of the blender into the Mesa. Then use a DI to send your clean signal to the PA. Bottom line, now you've got the sound you want onstage and the soundguy has the sound he wants in the PA, and the show can go forward in a professional manner.

Once you've got that baseline standard met, and assuming you bought the soundguy a beer and made friends with him, then you can say "hey, you know I use a lot of effects, and my amp has a killer tone, could we set up a second channel off the post-EQ DI out of the Mesa, or could we mic the Mesa cab?" Now you're cooking.

[KingOvHell]

Terrible. I'll be a pal and take that mess off your hands.

[TOOL460002]

Originally Posted by atheos

I would route the setup so that there would be A/B switch that acts as "A or A+B",

+1

try the A+B thing first- its a lot cheaper- and if you dont like it- you can trade up- another amp/cab- and you still have a looper.

im waiting on a custom parallel looper- and intend to use it in a similar fashion as you. i will know if a 410 can accurately reproduce both clean and dirty signals well enough to be useful. if not- i need to find a used eden 112.

lastly- i picked up a zvex machine the other day- and am extremely impressed with the low end on it. it could be chaotic enough for your taste- while still using your existing speaker/power situation.

[robisbass]

If distortion is going to be a big part of your sound, you absolutely must work with the sound man and have a mic on your cabinet. That's why guitar players don't use a DI: they are always going amp-->cab-->mic-->PA. If you are going for something other than your clean bass sound you have to mic it up. And yes, then you risk screwing up the mix with every adjustment on stage which is why sound guys hate mic-ing bass cabs-- they have enough to deal with already and at least with the DI, they can mix it in and forget about the bass and deal with the rest.

That's going to be hard enough (as bongomania intimated) to get accomplished. Sound men are *generally* very non-cooperative of anything outside of their standard operating procedure. If you start showing up with 2 amps and all this other complicated stuff they are going to hate you and may not even hook it up. Remember, they are being paid to make sure things don't blow up and by complicating things you are working against stability and known quantities. They look at that like you're making their job harder and putting their gear and the sound at risk when you are just trying to get the best sound you can get.

I used an Octaver (set to produce a tone an octave down) to fatten things up solos and certain parts. I was playing in a power trio at the time so it was nice to have that extra note in there. The effect needs to match the part though. It sounds a little artificial but it can be great to be playing a high pitched passage and have the whole passage doubled automatically by the effect an octave down. Phat.

My main advice is to simplify. Try to get the tone you want during practice with as little equipment as possible. You probably just need a really good fuzz box/distortion pedal. If yours is losing the lows, try out some others. You'll save a lot of money instead of buying a whole other amp.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by bongomania

A DI is absolutely critical in live performance.

A delivery system for the PA is critical. Whether that's a DI or a mic on a cab isn't critical, IMHO. Give me the choice of a DI or a mic and I'll take the mic 100% of the time. Even if it's a "lowly" 58 or 57, I'll take it over a DI any day of the week. DI's deliver freqs that I don't necessarily want the soundman to have, especially if they're over 5k, plus I like the excited tone of a mic on a cab over the relatively flat and uncolored sound of most DI's. The only mic I won't take over a DI is a kick mic.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

A delivery system for the PA is critical. Whether that's a DI or a mic on a cab isn't critical, IMHO.

OK, I'll buy that. I guess the only limitation there is -as you know- many soundmen are allergic to miking bass cabs, whereas they all like a DI. But I do know your feelings on that subject.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by bongomania

OK, I'll buy that. I guess the only limitation there is -as you know- many soundmen are allergic to miking bass cabs, whereas they all like a DI. But I do know your feelings on that subject.

How would you? I hardly ever talk about it.





Yes, it does sometimes take a bit of re-education, and a pretty smile and a polite but firm request usually takes care of that. Not always, but you'd be surprised how far it will take you. However, I'm not as anal about it as I was earlier this year. If they insist on a DI, then I just plug my VT pedal in line, then I set it to make the DI sound like a very reasonable facsimile of a mic'ed cab. They think they're happy because they don't have to run a mic, and I'm happy because I successfully block their access to anything past 5k

[erikbojerik]

need feedback on my rig please

Stand closer to the amp.

[AndyLES]

Originally Posted by robisbass

And yes, then you risk screwing up the mix with every adjustment on stage which is why sound guys hate mic-ing bass cabs-- they have enough to deal with already and at least with the DI, they can mix it in and forget about the bass and deal with the rest.

That's going to be hard enough (as bongomania intimated) to get accomplished. Sound men are *generally* very non-cooperative of anything outside of their standard operating procedure. If you start showing up with 2 amps and all this other complicated stuff they are going to hate you and may not even hook it up. Remember, they are being paid to make sure things don't blow up and by complicating things you are working against stability and known quantities. They look at that like you're making their job harder and putting their gear and the sound at risk when you are just trying to get the best sound you can get.

Keep in mind also that on a typical night, we have to get 5-6 bands on and off the stage (sometimes more) with very low turnaround times. But, I do try to accomodate when feasible, because I've been on the other side of the equation many times myself.

[quigg]

An octaver with distortion sounds wicked, but I don't know what you would use it for live. It's pretty cool to play around with on your own though, maybe you could work it into a couple of songs

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by AndyLES

Keep in mind also that on a typical night, we have to get 5-6 bands on and off the stage (sometimes more) with very low turnaround times. But, I do try to accomodate when feasible, because I've been on the other side of the equation many times myself.

This is why every single band that does gigs needs a stage plot, a monitor send list, and input list and needs to notify the soundman ahead of time of their needs. Time between bands is precious, so if you're a special needs bassist as I am (er...a bassist with special needs for playing bass, that is), an informed soundman is much more likely to help you do it, or at least he'll let you know what he will and won't do.