NON-True Bypass switcing....

[JohnDavisNYC]

so, here's a random question... kinda weird, and most likely futile...

but does anyone make a switching strip that is not true bypass? i know there are awesome programmable things with relays and stuff... but after more and more TB switch failures and the clicks and pops that go along with TB switches, I'm starting to think that a FET based loop strip would be great... maybe with one TB mechanical switch for taking EVERYTHING out of the loop...

it would be amazing if my NoiseBox, Orbit and FatMan all switched as silently and reliably as my trusty OC2...

my BugCrusher and Moog are also non-TB, and I don't really like the sound of the Moog in bypass, and have no opinion on the BugCrusher... I suppose it is fine... but it would be awesome to have them all in a FET or silent relay sort of switching system...

yup. these are the sort of things I think about at 9:30am on a wednesday.

John

[bassbmx]

Sorry John, I can't help but I'm interested to see if anyone else knows so here's me bumping this to the top

[Lutuh]

Originally Posted by JohnDavisNYC

but after more and more TB switch failures and the clicks and pops that go along with TB switches

Switch failures: That is independent from True Bypass or not. You'd always need some kind of switch - because you want to switch something.

Clicks and pops: The only TB "effect" that I have is a Boston BTU 500 tuner, and I've never noticed any noise when switching. But thats only one single pedal, I just wanted to state that. First time that I hear of popping noises when switching a TB.

[Jazz Ad]

Failures and pops aren't independant from true bypass at all.
Most brands use the same kind of 3PDT switch for true bypass. They are hard to push, not very resistant and always make pop noises. unless the builder took the time to correct the issue.
The use of relays for true bypass fixes most of these issues.
Like most TB hype bubbles, true bypass finally explodes. People start seeing why it isn't the best answer to all issues.

[oerk]

Originally Posted by Lutuh

Switch failures: That is independent from True Bypass or not. You'd always need some kind of switch - because you want to switch something.

Clicks and pops: The only TB "effect" that I have is a Boston BTU 500 tuner, and I've never noticed any noise when switching. But thats only one single pedal, I just wanted to state that. First time that I hear of popping noises when switching a TB.

Switches for TB (2PDT or 3PDT) have more mechanical contacts than SPDT switches and therefore are more likely to fail.

And I do notice pop noises in my TB pedals, and the switches are harder to press.

Additionally, if you have one buffered pedal (for instance any Boss pedal) in front of your TB pedals, the concept of TB is moot anyway.

The idea of a FET switched loop strip isn't bad at all. I don't know who makes one, but it probably wouldn't be too hard to build.

[fightthepower]

Originally Posted by oerk

Additionally, if you have one buffered pedal (for instance any Boss pedal) in front of your TB pedals, the concept of TB is moot anyway.

I disagree--- There is a noticeable difference between 3 Boss buffers in my chain vs 1 buffer with the rest being TB. A mix of TB and buffered is ideal in many(but not necessarily all) situations, imo.

[scotch]

The WOBO Proglooper is essentially a 'programmable' tb looper that uses relays instead of straight-up mechanical switching:



I've seen some others as well. The're is a TC Electronics system that uses buffered relays and has a rackmount patchbay design. Voodoo Labs 'Commander' series also can be used to set-up as a pedal switcher. Then, there's always a Pete Cornish sytem!!!! $$$$ !!!!


I guess you've had bad luck using mechanical tb loops? I've been using a Loop-Master strip on stage and in the studio for years now. I've eliminated 99.99% of click/pop issues by doing 2 things:
1) Cycle switches 4 or 5 times before a session every day. This seems to remove any static buildup that causes noise.
2) Ensure proper grounding. I've only experienced 'popping' in situations where I had to lift the ground of the 1st device downstream from my Loop-Master. Re-establishing this critical ground & lifting elsewhere has always eliminated these pops.

Of course, the mechanical switches make a 'clicking' sound themselves. There's really no practical way to fix that! Honestly, I've never been playing at a volume where the click became a distraction. Even when tracking in a small-ish room w/ drums or other mic's set-up, the clicking hasn't been a problem.

[scotch]

Originally Posted by fightthepower

I disagree--- There is a noticeable difference between 3 Boss buffers in my chain vs 1 buffer with the rest being TB. A mix of TB and buffered is ideal in many(but not necessarily all) situations, imo.

Agreed.

"Stacking" buffer on top of buffer can lead to some strange tonal issues downstream. One or two is no big deal (and, of course, quality of the circuit is a big factor), but I often notice either signal degradation or unnatural 'feel' response when 3 or more cheapo buffers are at work.

Of course, everyone has had unique experiences and has different ears! So, if an all-BOSS chain of 20 pedals is working for you- don't let anyone tell you you're 'wrong'! (That is, until you end up in a good studio someday & the engineer shows you what the possibilities are! )

I'm with fighthtepower that a well-planned and implemented tb+strategic buffering is the best-case strategy for complex set-ups. Obviously, the most efficient set-up is a short cable direct, but that's no fun is it!

[oerk]

Originally Posted by fightthepower

I disagree--- There is a noticeable difference between 3 Boss buffers in my chain vs 1 buffer with the rest being TB. A mix of TB and buffered is ideal in many(but not necessarily all) situations, imo.

Let me rephrase: I didn't intend to make my post sound like buffers can't change the (bypassed) tone. I was coming from an impedance/signal loading standpoint. TB is a concept to reduce loading the signal of a passive instrument with high impedance by means of taking the effect out of the signal path completely.

If you have one buffered pedal in front of your chain, signal impedance is already low - which means loading of the signal (and therefore loss of highs) by using non-TB pedals virtually can't occur anymore.

What difference did you notice when using more than one buffered pedal, if I may ask?

[JohnDavisNYC]

i guess the thing that i don't like about all the available relay or buffered switching systems is that they all assume that you are going to be making presets...

for me, regular stomp boxes work great, because my pedal board is part of my instrument, and i improvise on it just as i do on bass... i need access to all the individual sound tools independently, not as pre determined sounds...

as a disclaimer, i haven't tried a truebypass strip, i'm speaking only from experience with individual pedals with true bypass switching... and aside from the tone of the moog line amp, i've never had a big issue with buffers. maybe i can get my studio tech to build a FET based active switching strip. FET switches are good enough sounding for my Studer 2" machine, should be fine for some pedals...

john

[bongomania]

Check out Lehle. They make a variety of excellent relay switching devices, with really solid construction and quality.


I argued here recently with someone about the reliability of 3PDT switches. He said "I have built over 90 pedals and none of their switches have broken". But the fact is those pedals are probably not all being stomped on constantly by a steadily-touring performer. There was an article by Dave Barber (that I can't find now) from a few years ago where he said his pro touring customers regularly had switches break on them. At the time of the article, he was changing all of his pedals from 3PDT to his own buffered design, but he said he knew people were going to give him grief for it because they all want "true bypass". Looking at his site today, I see he says all of his pedals are true bypass, and he offers the buffer as an option. So I'm betting the masses emailed him to death, chanting "TBP! TBP!", making him go back to 3PDT even though they are not reliable under heavy use.

[FreaqyFrequency]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Check out Lehle. They make a variety of excellent relay switching devices, with really solid construction and quality.


I argued here recently with someone about the reliability of 3PDT switches. He said "I have built over 90 pedals and none of their switches have broken". But the fact is those pedals are probably not all being stomped on constantly by a steadily-touring performer. There was an article by Dave Barber (that I can't find now) from a few years ago where he said his pro touring customers regularly had switches break on them. At the time of the article, he was changing all of his pedals from 3PDT to his own buffered design, but he said he knew people were going to give him grief for it because they all want "true bypass". Looking at his site today, I see he says all of his pedals are true bypass, and he offers the buffer as an option. So I'm betting the masses emailed him to death, chanting "TBP! TBP!", making him go back to 3PDT even though they are not reliable under heavy use.

That seems like the best way out of that situation. Buffering is quite often a superior bypassing mechanism, so it's good that he offers that as an option to the people who care or are educated beyond the dogma that TBP is the only way to go.

[scotch]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Check out Lehle. They make a variety of excellent relay switching devices, with really solid construction and quality.


I argued here recently with someone about the reliability of 3PDT switches. He said "I have built over 90 pedals and none of their switches have broken". But the fact is those pedals are probably not all being stomped on constantly by a steadily-touring performer. There was an article by Dave Barber (that I can't find now) from a few years ago where he said his pro touring customers regularly had switches break on them. At the time of the article, he was changing all of his pedals from 3PDT to his own buffered design, but he said he knew people were going to give him grief for it because they all want "true bypass". Looking at his site today, I see he says all of his pedals are true bypass, and he offers the buffer as an option. So I'm betting the masses emailed him to death, chanting "TBP! TBP!", making him go back to 3PDT even though they are not reliable under heavy use.

Well, I think you are overstepping by claiming that 3pdt's are "unreliable". I've been stomping the crap out of a multitude of them over the past 15 years with no failures. The only switches I have had fail include the old EBS octave that I had and an old digitech years ago.

I'm not saying that the things cannot and do not fail, but that the 'unreliable' label isn't really accurate.

True Bypass has definitely gotten out-of-hand and is largely misunderstood by a large portion of it's devotees. This, however, does not diminish the merit of properly applied tb technology.

Of course, crappy buffers are largely a thing of the past as well! (Moog & some other buffers excepted...)